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· This space for rent
1,478 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
On the GP bike for Rossi? Will they be able to make it handle with an engine that just cannot be packaged as efficiently as the I4 or even the more narrow angle V4's like Honda and Suzuki and even Aprilia are using? Of course changing the V angle means the need for power robbing balance shafts.

Perhaps they should start working on a crossplane I4 for 2012 and shock the GP world with a bike that will work good everywhere instead of some tracks where the bike works well and others where everybody tucks the front.

Can Ducati solve these conundrums and make the bike easy to ride like the Yamaha and gentle on tires with confidence inspiring feedback? Will they listen to Rossi and implement they changes necessary to create a balanced bike or will they just try to throw more power at it to cover up for the handling deficiencys that a 90 degree V4 presents? Honda won't even run a 90 degree V4 anymore after the ridiculous amount of money they spent trying to make the RC 45 a winner. Will Ducati go for a 75.5 or a 65 degree V angle to help packaging and improve handling or will they be stuck in their ways?

Discuss logically, please don't get emotional and resort to name calling. Please offer your opinion but don't attack others opinions, feel free to speculate how the Ducati will change between now and the end of 2012.

· This space for rent
1,478 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
They broke away from their tradition of V2's for GP, will they stick with what is sort of a tradition for them in the 90 degree V or will they think outside the box somewhat like Honda did when they created the 75.5 degree V5?

I hope they can make the bike handle on par with the Yamaha, but I wonder if they will be stubborn and stick to their tradition if Rossi asks for something different in the engine dept.

· Registered
2,868 Posts
Bro , the softball you've just lobbed is making a certain fanatic salivate ! Are you a glutton for punishment ? :( For next year of course the V will be a 90 'cause the bike is fast already and Rossi can make anything work better , but '12 is anyone's guess although Ducati will stick with a V b/c that's their signature more than any other company . BTW , does anyone know what Honda's V angle is ? I thought this was still a guarded secret .

· Registered
145 Posts
i think they would stick with the vee engine maybe alter the angle of the vee if it helps with the handling.
but i thought most went off the inline 4 to get the bike more compact and v,s naturally produce a torquey motor.
if they start loosing then they will have to do something?

· Registered
4,181 Posts
Ducati has no reason to give up that platform considering their recent level fo competitiveness. If anything this yr and the past has shown the issue has been the chassis, notably for Stoner the front end, not the engine performance. Can it be smoothed out and more tractable - yes and that's a job for the electronics not the engine configurators contrary to popular belief.

Seems like poking the stick at a certain someone imo. :cool:

· Registered
1,455 Posts
Will They

In Moto GP Ducati abandoned the L-2 for the L-4
In Moto GP Ducati abandoned the steel trellis frame for Carbon Fiber.

They hired the GOAT admitedly in the twilight of this career who along with Burgess excel at making bikes easy to ride.

If it helps the handling I think they would go to a narrower V Angle probably for 2012.

They wont go to an I-4 as they dont have the money or the time for development.

· Registered
936 Posts
Paging Larry

Larry, here is a "V" engine configuration thread. This might be a thread you would want to post in. We all know you have valuable insight and relevant experience.

This is not a Suzuki GSXR thread. We know you get a bit confused sometimes.
Just thought I'd help out.

· Registered
5,440 Posts
Larry, here is a "V" engine configuration thread. This might be a thread you would want to post in. We all know you have valuable insight and relevant experience.

This is not a Suzuki GSXR thread. We know you get a bit confused sometimes.
Just thought I'd help out.


Semper Fi! :rockon


· Registered
129 Posts
Don't worry about the next V-4 from Ducati....if they think it will place needed weight on the front wheel, they'll narrow the V up.

I read an interview done with one of the big boys from Ducati a year or two ago. It may have been Federico or Gabriele, I don't remember.

But....what stuck with me was the guy saying that if they needed to, they would narrow up the V-angle in the Superbike, possibly all the way to 60 degrees.

I figure if they would do that to the company's signature V-twin, then anything is possible with the MotoGP bike.


· V4 CyclePath...
6,827 Posts
Ducati has won 22 WSBK titles and 1 MotoGp title employing the 90º V engine
configuration so I don't see why Filippo Preziosi would think change... fact is
since 2002 the M1 has changed the most to keep up the Vs so Yamaha's
engineers are the ones that may think about switching to a V4 in 2012...

First change was Yamaha's cross plane crank which was designed to mimic
the good points of linear V5 secondly was a weight shift to mimic the weight
distrubution of the Ducati to help utilize the performance of Bridgestone...
Yamaha's I4 is short but it don't matter to the engineer because it's center of
gravity currently rest 30mm further back in the frame thanks to spec tire

Quote MCN 2009:

"Arguably the biggest change for Rossi's bike, though, is a much
shorter wheelbase to help utilize the performance of Bridgestone's
tires. Rossi's bike is now 40mm shorter than the MI he raced to fifth
place on his Bridgestone debut back in March in Qatar. And he said
drastic reduction was essential to help keep Yamaha ahead of Ducati
and Honda."

Quote Rossi 2009:

"The new bike is different in the chassis," Rossi explained. "The
weight distribution is different and the feeling is not so bad. We
have a little bit more stability with the front and rear. We
discovered during the year that Bridgestone needs a completely
different setting compared to Michelin. We knew this quite early in
the season, but we realized we needed to move the weight of the bike.
"So we had to shorten the bike to use the tire in a different way,"
said Rossi, who conceded the much shorter wheelbase did mean
sacrifices in other areas."

"For sure, a shorter bike is a more difficult bike," he admitted. "You
have more wheelies and it becomes more unstable, particularly in the
faster corners, so you need a rider that is able to manage this. I
have to change my style to adapt to the bike, because it is quite
different compared to last year, but if you can use the potential of
the Bridgestone tires then it is possible to go very fast. That is why
we need to have made such big changes for the chassis next year."

Quote Julian Ryder:
"When Rossi defected from Michelin at the end of 2007, he
immediately wanted to know what spec Bridgestone tires Stoner used.
Whatever they were, Rossi knew that he would have to adapt himself and
his motorcycle to those same tires if he were to have a chance of
defeating the youngster."

"Stoner uses a stiffer front that most Bridgestone riders, a tire that
doesn't necessarily offer a better lap time but does deliver a better
race time, because its stiffer, less forgiving construction provides
better race long support/perfromance. Rossi knew he had to use this
front, even if it as tricky as hell to master. This tire requires a
rare combination of aggression and deft control to work effectively,
and also needs a certain amount of pressure applied during corner
entry to make the rubber squirm into the correctly shaped contact

"Thus Rossi's crew adapted his M1's set-up to apply the
correct load to the front tire, and then Rossi had to revise his
cornering technique to suit Bridgestones, using smooth, sweeping

Quote Rossi: "The Bridgestone tires have a different construction and
differenct charactor, so I need to ride different lines. If I use the
same line I used with Michelin, I lose time."

"The 800 require a neater, more classical and less thrilling
to watch arcing line, which perfectly fits the Bridgestones.

Quote Rossi: "With the 800s, everything becomes more flat" adds Rossi
explaining that his M1 features less dive into turns and less squat on
the way out. "Now corner speed is the most important issue for lap
time. Before it was about braking and accelleration, so you had two
very different parts to the corner, clearly divided, and you needed to
move on the bike in a different way. Now it is corner speed, so the
braking and accellration become a little less important"

But when he tried the harder front he couldn't get on
with it. because it was too stiff for him, so ne couldn't get any feel
- and without feel, even the best "front tyre in the world is totally

Quote Neil Spalding:

"Rossi won the 2008 MotoGP championship with a bodge - a bike
built for Michelins that he and his crew chief Jeremy Burgess then
persuaded to perform on Bridgestones, ultimately beating the
Ducati on which those same tyres were initially developed.
It was an amazing achievement, not only because Rossi had to
change his riding style to pull it off, but because he and his team
only needed three races in 2008 to figure out the problem. It turned
out that the Ducati-developed Bridgestones liked a whole lot of
weight on the rear, and not much on the front. In converting the
Yamaha to suit this new reality, the team first they used up all the
standard chassis adjustment, then ordered a whole new chassis
from the factory. It can't have felt good to Valentino, who up to then
had spent 12 years in GPs riding traditional front-heavy bikes, but it
was a case of adapt or lose."

· Registered
145 Posts
a disciple of Larry I see.... better read up on your physics, numerous design parameters and tuning are what determine an engine's powerband, not how the cylinders are arranged (despite Larry's often-repeated New Physics)....
i think you might find that a powerband is a sheer rush of revs and hp not torque.
ask any engine tuner worth there salt and they will all come out with one saying
horsepower sells engines torque wins races
how many torquey 2 stokes do you know of ??? no but they all have massive powerbands.
take any v8 engine and if its producing in standard form 500hp it will still produce more torque than an inline 4-6-8 cylinder that produces 500hp.
why do you think most touring bikes have a vee engine fitted because its naturally a torquey motor
i think its you who needs to read up and read what people actually write as i never mentioned powerband in the first place

· V4 CyclePath...
6,827 Posts
Honda won't even run a 90 degree V4 anymore after the ridiculous amount of money they spent trying to make the RC45 a winner.
I think we can agree that WSBK titles don't come cheap and the RC45 was
designed to win and win it did... 30 Titles...

4 Isle of Man TT F1 titles...

3 Isle of Man Senior titles...

3 World Endurance Championships...

5 Suzuka 8 Hour wins...

2 AMA Superbike Championship...

2 Daytona 200 wins...

1 World Superbike Championship...

2 Australian Superbike Championships...

1 Macau Grand Prix...

1 Ulster Grand Prix

1 24 Hours of Lemans

4 NorthWest 200

· Registered
358 Posts
Larry, why did you post them up? You know everyone on here can't bring themselves to acknowledge those victories:banghead

Looks like it won alot to me.....and to anyone with a below average IQ(canadian maybe????)

Larry you forgot 3 Japanese superbike titles.(95, 96 and 98)
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