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Discussion Starter #1
I've been reading Twist of the Wrist II, and most everything makes sense except he says while in a corner, put pressure on the OUTSIDE peg! (with pressure on the inside bar- which I agree with) He calls this technique "pivot steering".

Can anyone either back up this technique or make it make sense to me? I've always put the pressure on the INSIDE peg.

Thanks!
 
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Discussion Starter #2
Re: weight on outside peg?? (bcpucky)

I think adding some "Total Control" by Lee Parks might shed some light...

Lee suggests weighting the inside bar and relaxing your grip on the outside bar. Putting weight on the outside peg facilitates the second part of Parks' advice, which is to get your body's CG inside the turn; that is, on the left side of the bike when turning left.

I have found that Parks is exactly right...you'll find yourself headed toward the apex more quickly than you anticipate! Putting these ideas together makes sense whe nyou think about it...
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (DesmoBob)

Total Control is an excellent read.
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (bcpucky)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bcpucky »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I've always put the pressure on the INSIDE peg...
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Think about this, too:

If you have your weight on the inside peg, and you lean over far enough to make contact with the peg and/or your foot, what's going to happen? It's going to upset your whole body, which in turn will upset the bike. And at maximum lean, a disruption like that can easily cause a crash.

On the other hand, if you use your outside foot (as well as your outside knee against the tank) to support your lower body weight, then you can keep the weight on your inside foot neutral. That way, when the foot peg or your boot hits the pavement, it upsets only that foot, but you retain control of the bike.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Re: weight on outside peg?? (bcpucky)

Sounds counter intuitive (remember when you were you first told to countersteer in turns), but the book is right.
To phrase it another way, think if you were walking and down the block and wanted to turn left without breaking stride, which foot would you push off with? Yep, your right foot - opposite of the direction you want to head. Why; this shifts your body's weight into the direction you want to head.

Same principle applies to holding a smooth line and cutting a clean arc through a turn.
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (Heist)

If you have ever gone skiing and you go fast where is your weight? On the outside ski and your body is leaned in. If you lift your inside ski and only use your outside ski you still be in total control. Same concept - does that work for visual?
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (KoolDuc)

Code explains it in Level III as "power steering". He demonstrated it by having the class face a wall and applying pressure against the wall with either hand while pressing against the floor with the foot of the same side and then the opposite. The result is you get better leverage with "opposites". This steering technique was further refined in Level III by levering the knee against the tank while applying pressure against the peg. It does take practice. The effective result of "power steering" is being able it set the lean angle extremely fast (great for transitions and late breaking)
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Re: weight on outside peg?? (bcpucky)

There are different opinions and styles. At turn-in I'll push off on the outside peg (not really consciously, but it's gotta happen) to move my lower body and drop my upper body. Mid-turn, I'll weight the inside peg - this also helps keep weight off the inside bar, which tends to inhibit turning - though Scott's right, if your bike doesn't have a lot of ground clearance then this can be a bad move. Driving out, I'll hang myself off the tank with my outside knee and push on the outside peg. This is basically what you'll get from listening to Freddie Spencer and Kevin Schwantz.

If you can rig up some sort of cruise control for your throttle, it's helpful to try riding no-handed in a big open parking lot somewhere, initiating and holding turns in different ways so you can see how weight shifts affect the bike in the absence of steering inputs.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
Re: weight on outside peg?? (KoolDuc)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KoolDuc »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you have ever gone skiing and you go fast where is your weight? On the outside ski and your body is leaned in. If you lift your inside ski and only use your outside ski you still be in total control. Same concept - does that work for visual?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's an excellent point! Same concept, exactly.


It also explains why it's so popular to put that ugly "traction pad" stuff on the side of your fuel tank these days. It gives you that much better leverage...
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Re: weight on outside peg?? (AZ Scott)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AZ Scott »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It also explains why it's so popular to put that ugly "traction pad" stuff on the side of your fuel tank these days. ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

That goes on the tank
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (section8superbike)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by section8superbike »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That goes on the tank
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Huh?
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (AZ Scott)

I learned this technique road racing bicycles and it translates perfectly to motorcycles. It effectively gets your center of gravity at the footpeg, nice and low where it should be, making for very stable cornering. Also, your outside leg acts as a shock absorber. I marvel at how hard I can hit a bump in a corner and not upset the bike, and more importantly, me. What I do is, as I set up for the corner, I put all my weight on the outside peg and use my outside leg to push me over in the seat to hang-off, and then keep the weight on the outside leg. My ass is barely on the seat. This leaves my inside leg completely relaxed and loose to be able to feel for the asphalt.
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (F1 Miami)

What Code teaches with the outside foot is not actualy weighting the peg, it's a bracing element to help you push the oposite bar with a minimum of upset to the bike. If your using your outside calf to hold on to the bike and your knee is out and the ball of your foot is on the inside peg, that is where your weight is (as it should be)
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (NC Rick)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NC Rick »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... your knee is out and the ball of your foot is on the inside peg, that is where your weight is (as it should be)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, most of your weight should be on the seat. And you don't want a lot of "weight" on the inside peg. The only weight the inside peg should be supporting is that of your lower leg, and that's it.
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (AZ Scott)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AZ Scott »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Actually, most of your weight should be on the seat. And you don't want a lot of "weight" on the inside peg. The only weight the inside peg should be supporting is that of your lower leg, and that's it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't agree. When I am riding hard less then 20% of my weight is on the seat. Almost motocross style, my legs act as additional "shocks" letting the bike work underneath me. Even when not actually leaning off (on the street), taking weight off the seat gives the bike's suspension a better chance to work.

As far as weighting the outside peg - I use my inside heel to initiate the turn but keep pressure on the outside peg for mid-corner control. For example, last weekend I came around a slower corner that had some dirt and wet leaves on the "line". My back-end stepped out, but I just used my outside heel to pull it back in. AZ Scott is correct in that had I put all my weight on the inside peg I would have low-sided. As it was, it wasn't even a nervous moment - just normal correction.

Aaron
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Re: weight on outside peg?? (Racer666)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Racer666 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I don't agree. When I am riding hard less then 20% of my weight is on the seat. Almost motocross style, my legs act as additional "shocks" letting the bike work underneath me. Even when not actually leaning off (on the street), taking weight off the seat gives the bike's suspension a better chance to work.Aaron</TD></TR></TABLE>

In the words of Ted Stryker: "Shirley, you can't be serious!"
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (AZ Scott)

Sorry Scott, I'm "Shirley" too. I put less weight on the seat the faster I go. The bike feels so much more stable and controlled with more weight on the legs (not just the feet).
Joe
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (Joe B)

Scott, not trying to imply your legs will actually "be" shocks, but that you shouldn't be deadweight on the saddle either. When is the last time you saw a trials or mx rider sit down?

Aaron


Modified by Racer666 at 11:05 AM 6/2/2005
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (AZ Scott)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AZ Scott »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Actually, most of your weight should be on the seat. And you don't want a lot of "weight" on the inside peg. The only weight the inside peg should be supporting is that of your lower leg, and that's it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Scott, help a brother out and please explain. This confuses me as I have always been told that, approaching a corner, you don't want all your weight on the seat. Many a track day instructor has said that you should have sore thighs at the end of the day as your legs should be supporting most of your weight.
 
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Re: weight on outside peg?? (JamesP)

Okay, guys...

First of all, we are talking about street/road course bikes, right? This has as much in common with trials riding as football does with ballet dancing. And MX is also completely different (with a few minor similarities). And even in MX, they're only standing on the pegs when they're straight up and down. As soon as they rail into a turn, they're on top of the seat/tank.

Anyway...

On a road bike, use the seat for what it is, a seat. Watch Valentino Rossi as he approaches a corner. Remember the famous pass at Jerez this year? When everyone made a big deal about his inside foot being off the peg? Did it look like he had a lot of weight on it?

And watch dirt trackers go around the track, left foot always out. That foot is not supporting their weight, just skimming the ground. And believe me, these guys aren't supporting the rest of their weight with their outside foot! Think about it: How many one-legged deep knee bends do you think you could do in a row?

Here's the deal. When you're going around a track, or down a twisty road, you do indeed want to stay "loose" on the bike (you're correct that you don't want "dead weight" on the seat, but that doesn't mean you stand up on the foot pegs). The more parts of your body that are in contact with the bike, the more you can feel what it's doing. You don't want a concentration of weight on any one part. Rather, you want it spread out evenly. But most of the weight will, in fact, be on the seat, because that's where your center of mass is located.

Approaching a turn, you want to set up your body position before you even start braking. On the straight leading toward the turn, gently slide your butt to the side while you're still tucked in. This requires un-weighting the seat just a bit. But it's not a drastic move, it's very subtle.

Then, as you begin braking, you come up out of your tuck and swing your knee outward. You are now in your "hang-off" position, and you haven't upset the bike at all because everything was done smoothly before the turn.

As you lean into the turn, your feet will be busy downshifting and/or braking, so you don't want any more weight on them than you need to have. Your butt and thigh will be supporting your body weight, and if you're cornering hard enough you'll actually feel your weight being "sucked" into the seat pad as the g-forces increase.

Use your outside foot and knee as "anchors" (as stated above) so that you can feel what the bike is doing under you. If the bike starts to slide, your legs will be the first indication, and you want just enough weight on them so they can extend with the bike, but they are not acting as the bike's suspension. That's what your forks and shock are for!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JamesP »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...Many a track day instructor has said that you should have sore thighs at the end of the day as your legs should be supporting most of your weight. </TD></TR></TABLE>

This part is true! But that's because you are using your legs to move your body from the left side hang-off position to the right side, and back again, lap after lap.

If you're making the transition from a left-hander to a right-hander, you have to be able to slide your butt across the seat. Since there's some friction there, you have to un-weight your body momentarily. This takes some leg strength, because you're doing it several times per lap.
 
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