Speedzilla Forums banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,508 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I read that Stoner is on the verge of matching Rainey's total wins and is not too far from Schwantz either.

500cc/MotoGP wins

79 - Valentino Rossi
68 - Giacomo Agostini
54 - Mick Doohan
37 - Mike Hailwood
31 - Eddie Lawson
25 - Kevin Schwantz
24 - Wayne Rainey
23 - Casey Stoner

Kinda eye opening to me, maybe because of idolizing Rainey, Doohan and Schwantz as a kid, I put them in a higher league. Maybe it is just a generational thing..... but tts impressive to think he has racked up the same level of success as those two.

I wonder if 15 years from now, Stoner will be mentioned in the same breath as Rainey/Schwantz?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,958 Posts
I'm not taking anything away from Wayne or Kevin as they were riding fire breathing dragons with lightswitch powerbands that I cannot even fathom & I know both of them personally as well, but even Kevin has mentioned that what current AMA Superbikes (from just a few years ago) were doing in terms of outright power and speed surpasses what he was acclimated too back in the 500 2-Stroke days.

Now with current MotoGP bikes clocking lap times several seconds faster than our AMA Superbikes from a few years ago that is some serious riding those MotoGP boys are doing out there. Yes they have $1,000,000 Traction Control Systems & allegedly even Braking Control now on some bikes, but they are still setting themselves up into the corners and maintaining massive amount of cornerspeed that riders of previous MotoGP bikes never had to manage. It is very impressive what a current MotoGP rider actually has to accomplish to be considered competitive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
Comparing riders from different generations is a tricky enterprise b/c technology (primarily tire technology !!) allows corner speeds and braking which weren't even dreamed about decades ago . Anyone doubt that a 25 year old Ago or Rainey would be successful today ? That ineffable touch on the knife-edge is timeless:twocents .
 

·
Panigaliscious
Joined
·
9,103 Posts
Casey has the speed of Rossi, the work ethic of Ron Lechein, and the mental strength of John Kocinski.

On his day he is untouchable, plain and simple. But he doesn't seem to be the type to just pound out laps or run miles for conditioning. When it is going well this strategy works. When it doesn't he struggles, and doesn't seem to be able to take a tough fight in the race or championship.

With that said, if he can reel off four or five wins early next season, it will be all over for 2011...

He will be remembered for his incredible speed, but not mentioned as one of the "warriors" like Rainey and Schwantz.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
Opinion

Until Stoner puts a few more championships up there he will be as good as Schwantz.

However never as exciting.

Looking at that list Schwantz and Stoner are at where the minor champions and the major ones are separated. Schwantz and Stoner have the Wins. Rainey has the Championship which I think count for more.
Hayden has the championship but severely lacks the wins to back it up.

Rainey 3
Lawson 4
Etc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,748 Posts
nah, he's gonna fall off of the Honda, as far as comparisons, there isn't any, put the lot of them on some vintage 500s and you will see what I'm talkin about...
 

·
Panigaliscious
Joined
·
9,103 Posts
nah, he's gonna fall off of the Honda, as far as comparisons, there isn't any, put the lot of them on some vintage 500s and you will see what I'm talkin about...
Casey grew up on dirt trackers. He would have been fine on a 500...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
773 Posts
Casey will catch Lawson on victories when it's all said and done, but not championships. He should have pretty good success on the Honda next year.
 

·
V4 CyclePath...
Joined
·
6,827 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,593 Posts
Casey has the speed of Rossi, the work ethic of Ron Lechein, and the mental strength of John Kocinski.

On his day he is untouchable, plain and simple. But he doesn't seem to be the type to just pound out laps or run miles for conditioning. When it is going well this strategy works. When it doesn't he struggles, and doesn't seem to be able to take a tough fight in the race or championship.

With that said, if he can reel off four or five wins early next season, it will be all over for 2011...

He will be remembered for his incredible speed, but not mentioned as one of the "warriors" like Rainey and Schwantz.


Nicely put! :clapper
 

·
Panigaliscious
Joined
·
9,103 Posts
pretty sure they never put a GP 500 motor in a dirt track bike (except that crazy shit that Yamaha built for Kenny)?...
For a period of time between the late 70's and mid-90's, virtually all of the 500GP champs came from a dirt track background at some point in their career. It taught them to steer with the rear wheel. The current high-corner-speed method is a "250" style that has only came about in the last 15 years or so as front tires massively improved throughout the 90's with radial technology.

Doohan didn't have a dirt track background that I know of, but still rode in that style. Biaggi could be argued as the first "modern" rider to rely on the 250 corner speed style. The tires and bikes had been developed to spin the rear for two decades, and Biaggi's reliance on high corner speed probably allowed him to win races, but also possibly kept him from championships due to more low-sides.

I once read an interview with Lawson where he said the high speed corners are easy, just spin the rear to get the bike to turn. It was the slow speed corners that were tricky, with a quick-turn throttle and a massive hit of 150 hp from a two-stroke, it must have been an experience to get on the gas to charge out of a tight turn.
 

·
Dis Member
Joined
·
324 Posts
500cc/MotoGP wins

79 - Valentino Rossi
68 - Giacomo Agostini
54 - Mick Doohan
37 - Mike Hailwood
31 - Eddie Lawson
25 - Kevin Schwantz
24 - Wayne Rainey
23 - Casey Stoner
I'd like to see a crash count for each rider to compare to these wins. That would be interesting to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
240 Posts
I'm not taking anything away from Wayne or Kevin as they were riding fire breathing dragons with lightswitch powerbands that I cannot even fathom .....
Now with current MotoGP bikes clocking lap times several seconds faster than our AMA Superbikes from a few years ago that is some serious riding those MotoGP boys are doing out there. Yes they have $1,000,000 Traction Control Systems & allegedly even Braking Control now on some bikes, but they are still setting themselves up into the corners and maintaining massive amount of cornerspeed that riders of previous MotoGP bikes never had to manage. It is very impressive what a current MotoGP rider actually has to accomplish to be considered competitive.
I'm not sure a direct comparison is viable.
The fact the bikes were slower means the braking into and getting out of corners was much more complex and pronounced, and it's not only TC it's the tires (today's street tires give approximately same level of grip as 15 years ago slicks), it's chassis technology (whether it's tuned flex or mass centralization) it's everything.

Can you think of a rider competing in the MotoGP and the Moto2 categories in the same season as once were?

In the case of Wayne Rainey, his career was brutally came to hold at its peak, thus a KPI (Key Performance Indicator) which relates to absolute number of victories is somewhat irrelevant.


Maybe a relevant comparison would be, comparing what each of the riders had with the development of the sport.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,508 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Until Stoner puts a few more championships up there he will be as good as Schwantz.

However never as exciting.

Looking at that list Schwantz and Stoner are at where the minor champions and the major ones are separated. Schwantz and Stoner have the Wins. Rainey has the Championship which I think count for more.
Hayden has the championship but severely lacks the wins to back it up.

Rainey 3
Lawson 4
Etc
+1 Hayden has the lowest wins for any champion, and to me, that explains why he is never mentioned in the same league as Stoner, Schwantz. Even Criville won 15 races (which was a surprise to me!), granted he ran against a depleted field.

Also interesting is Biaggi, with a good number of wins with no title... soon to be passed with Jorge and Dani.

So who on this list is the greatest 1 title champion in your opinion?

Valentino ROSSI (7 titles) 79
Giacomo AGOSTINI (8 titles) 68
Mick DOOHAN (5 titles) 54
Mike HAILWOOD (4 titles) 37
Eddie LAWSON (4 titles) 31
Kevin SCHWANTZ (1 title) 25
Wayne RAINEY (3 titles) 24
Casey STONER (1 title) 23
Geoff DUKE (4 titles) 22
John SURTEES (4 titles) 22
Kenny ROBERTS (3 titles) 22
Freddie SPENCER (2 titles) 20
Barry SHEENE (2 titles) 19
Wayne GARDNER (1 title) 18
Alex CRIVILLE (1 title) 15
Randy MAMOLA 13
Max BIAGGI 13
Jorge LORENZO 12
Dani PEDROSA 12
Phil READ (2 titles) 11
Sete GIBERNAU 9
Loris CAPIROSSI 9
Gary HOCKING (1 title) 8
Luca CADALORA 8
Kenny ROBERTS Jr. (1 title) 8
Alex BARROS 7
Umberto MASETTI (2 titles) 6
Marco LUCCHINELLI (1 title) 6
Leslie GRAHAM (1 title) 5
Wil HARTOG 5
Franco UNCINI (1 title) 5
Marco MELANDRI 5
Reg ARMSTRONG 4
Libero LIBERATI (1 title) 4
John KOCINSKI 4
Tadayuki OKADA 4
Alfredo MILANI 3
John HARTLE 3
Alberto PAGANI 3
Jack FINDLAY 3
Pat HENNEN 3
Johnny CECOTTO 3
Daryl BEATTIE 3
Norick ABE 3
Garry McCOY 3
Nicky HAYDEN (1 title) 3
 

·
Panigaliscious
Joined
·
9,103 Posts
Stoner is probably the greatest single year champ, but I expect he will end up with more than one before he retires.

Mamola and Biaggi are the two best never to have won in MotoGP. Four 250 and one WSBK champ makes up for it with Max in my book. Pedrosa may take that dubious distinction if he never wins.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
I think something which makes guys like Schwantz, Rainey, Lawson more memorable is that they were older and had more established personalities. Schwantz was thirty when he won the championship (2007), Stoner was twenty two years old (same age as Kocinski when he won the 250 championship). Schwantz, Rainey and co dragged their battles from AMA onto the world stage and carried on with it but Stoner doesn't have the history which the prominent guys from the 90's did. Stoner was riding in the British 125cc championship when he was fourteen years old.

Here's an illuminating passage from wikipedia:
He competed in his first race was when he was four years old, in an under-nine years old race at the Mike Hatcher's dirt racing track on the Gold Coast of Australia. Between his very first race win at the age of nine and the age of fourteen, Stoner won 41 dirt and long track titles and 70 state titles.[1]
One feat he achieved that illustrates his passion and "need" for racing was at age twelve. Over one weekend he raced in 5 different categories in all 7 rounds of each capacity. A weekend consisting of 35 different races... Not only did he compete in all these categories and different engine capacities, the young Casey Stoner went on to win 32 out of the 35 races. There were five Australian titles to be won that weekend, Stoner won all 5.
You'd probably find similar stories for people like Lorenzo, Pedrosa and many others. Of course it's hard to compare Stoner and his contemporaries with the champions from the nineties - just about impossible. The same as when you're comparing the two GOAT's of Rossi and Agostini!
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top