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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
North American 2011 Kawasaki ZX-10R loses 20 HP, slower than S1000RR | Hell for Leather

seems like they detuned the thing right into last decade
sure, once you buy the aftermarket exhaust the ECU and mapping you can recover the HP, but as the articles puts it....

quote from the article: ( i have top say this now since some of you don't know what it means when a paragraph is in between quotes):

"Of course, with modifications to the North American bikes limited to exhaust and ECU changes, it should be relatively easy for owners to recover the lost power or achieve even more with the addition of an illegal can and race ECU. However, this does raise a larger issue. With sales of liter bikes largely pegged to whichever bike wins on-paper performance pissing contests and Kawasaki charging an ambitious $13,800 (equivalent to the base S1000RR, which doesn’t include traction control) the added cost of achieving equivalent performance could sway buyers in BMW’s direction. Perhaps tellingly, 2011 ZX-10Rs are already available for discounted prices; this dealer, for instance, is advertising $1,000 off the sticker price."
 

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That totally sucks.

But wouldn't this affect the BMW as well? Or do they already meet the strict Emissions requirements?

This is probably why Honda Suz and Yam are taking a while to introduce their new models.
 

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This definitely takes some steam out of my engine but at the end of the day if all that's required is an exhaust and ECU, is it really that bad especially if you can pick one up for around $10K or $11K?

.....but then you'd run into warranty issues.

Ugly scenario here.
 

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Panigaliscious
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This might not be that big of an issue currently, it seems everyone ditches the stock exhaust anyway. But in a couple of years California will ban aftermarket exhaust, then it will become more of a concern for manufacturers. I guess they could include an "off road use only" exhaust as part of a promotion to sell the bikes, what the customer does once he gets home isn't their problem.

BTW, this heavily supports my thread from a few weeks ago...
http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/street-track/62803-oem-exhausts-history-repeating-itself.html
 

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This is similar to what happened when they launched the ZX-12R.

They restricted the ZX-12 before it's release in N.A. Only the savviest of riders knew that an unrestricted 12R was faster than a unrestricted Busa in stock trim. ...but it never came to light.
 

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This might not be that big of an issue currently, it seems everyone ditches the stock exhaust anyway. But in a couple of years California will ban aftermarket exhaust, then it will become more of a concern for manufacturers. I guess they could include an "off road use only" exhaust as part of a promotion to sell the bikes, what the customer does once he gets home isn't their problem.

BTW, this heavily supports my thread from a few weeks ago...
http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/street-track/62803-oem-exhausts-history-repeating-itself.html
I saw on the History channel that scientists believe that California will fall off of the US map within the next decade. So this is a non-issue. :woot:
 

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One thing is for sure: by keeping up their support for more legislation manufacturers are only shooting themselves in the foot. :rolleyes:
 

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This is similar to what happened when they launched the ZX-12R.

They restricted the ZX-12 before it's release in N.A. Only the savviest of riders knew that an unrestricted 12R was faster than a unrestricted Busa in stock trim. ...but it never came to light.
I spent a good bit of time on a 'burgundy-ish' '00 ZX-12R that was not restricted, absolutely amazing bike.
 

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Panigaliscious
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Yeah when the Hayabusa came out in 1999 and topped out at 196 mph everyone was just drooling over the ZX-12 that was set to come out a year later. Hype was that it would be the first bike to top 200 stock.

Then magazines got them to test and they struggled to even top 185? The culprit was electronic restrictions that only allowed it to go 300 kph (186 mph). Interestingly the Hayabusa also had these restrictions now for the 2000MY. Gentlemen's agreement among the Japanese manufacturers. They thought by limiting the bikes they could avoid them being outlawed for being too fast by governments around the world.

As we all know, crashing at 200 is very dangerous but crashing at 186 is nothing more than a rough shiatsu massage:rolleyes:
 

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I don't care how much hp the Kawi delivers their literbike chassis' sucks ass & always will. If the factory teams can't get the damn things to handle properly at speed with their virtually unlimited budgets, unobtainable suspension, chassis mods, eccentric adjusters and modded swingarms, triple clamps etc the mere mortal production owners stand no chance...
 

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I don't care how much hp the Kawi delivers their literbike chassis' sucks ass & always will. If the factory teams can't get the damn things to handle properly at speed with their virtually unlimited budgets, unobtainable suspension, chassis mods, eccentric adjusters and modded swingarms, triple clamps etc the mere mortal production owners stand no chance...
There is a such thing as over-engineering. Back in the day their ZX-7R superbike was probably the best handling bike on the grid. They know how to make bikes that handle well.

The problem is (based on what I've heard from the fast guys) is that the bikes are extremely sensitive to settings changes. Besides, when was the last time Kawi had a quality rider in any top level competition?

The Kawi not winning in WSBK may not be related to bike or rider. It could be the team or the management. It could be anything. There's a missing link somewhere. Keep in mind too that Kawi has won supersport championships which shows that they know how to make a good handling machine.
 

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Panigaliscious
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You would think that if a manufacturer always had great-handling machines whil another manufacturer seemed to struggle for years with poor handling they would do what everyone does: copy the better one.

This happens all the time IMO, which is why any real advantage for one maker is usually gone within a model year or two. Each copies the best aspects of the competition and tries to improve it.

I don't see how in 2008 the ZX-10 was considered the "one of the best" stock by many but couldn't win the AMA championship or races in WSBK. Of course then again the CBR1000RR was the other "best" bike and couldn't win either.
 

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You would think that if a manufacturer always had great-handling machines whil another manufacturer seemed to struggle for years with poor handling they would do what everyone does: copy the better one.

This happens all the time IMO, which is why any real advantage for one maker is usually gone within a model year or two. Each copies the best aspects of the competition and tries to improve it.

I don't see how in 2008 the ZX-10 was considered the "one of the best" stock by many but couldn't win the AMA championship or races in WSBK. Of course then again the CBR1000RR was the other "best" bike and couldn't win either.
I don't think it's all the bike's fault.
 

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Interesting
But saying the bike is detuned by way of exhaust & computer is kinda lame.
If you said the bike has been detuned electronically thats fine, as the Kit ECU should fix the power deficeit or some other free mod.
But when you throw in the exhaust is causing a loss of full power, thats just the same thing we have known since the beginning of motorcycles.

But why throw it out there now and say well you should be getting 22 more HP if not detuned (computer) and with an exhaust?

So lets put it out there, now every maker can claim they have detuned their bikes due to exhaust restrictions, and with an aftermarket or accessory system you can have full power. guess they need help to sell the bike as it is damn ugly but sure to work better than the previous gens?
 

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Panigaliscious
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Emissions regulations (both for sound and tailpipe gasses) place an artificial constraint on the manufacturers. The exhausts have to be heavy to be economical and meet tailpipe limits (catalytic converters), and very large to flow a decent amount of gas without being overly loud.

If the EPA didn't care about one or the other then you would see much less to be gained by going to an aftermarket exhaust. As it is now the manufacturers are painted into a corner where the best compromise between packaging on the bike, cost to manufacture, and marketing of the stock bikes' abilities have to be balanced. Kawasaki chose to "de-tune" the bike in such a way that buyers can easily undo the steps Kawasaki had to use to remain legal.

But the biggest thing some might be missing is that it is not an apples to apples comparison for stock versus aftermarket exhaust. Virtually all aftermarket exhaust is technically illegal for road use. Either by sound or tailpipe emission, but probably both.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I don't care how much hp the Kawi delivers their literbike chassis' sucks ass & always will. If the factory teams can't get the damn things to handle properly at speed with their virtually unlimited budgets, unobtainable suspension, chassis mods, eccentric adjusters and modded swingarms, triple clamps etc the mere mortal production owners stand no chance...
exactly...this has been the bottom line for Kawi bikes, including almost all their 600 as well.
 
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