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Amateur PiG Wrestler
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Discussion Starter · #21 · (Edited)
Steering Issues

1) The Penske has adjustable height - no need for a shim.
2) You said you had to "force the pig into the turns", which would indicate a resistance to turn-in. Then you said the "bars would turn in on you", which I don't understand (falls into the turn?). Then you said you had to apply excess countersteering to maintain the line. So, if it doesn't want to initiate a turn, lowering the front a bit and/or raising the rear will help. If it doesn't want to maintain the turn, that could mean a lot of things - too much throttle, too little rebound on the front, too little compression on the rear, rear spring too light, front springs too heavy, etc.

In any case, if it is too hard to turn in, lowering the rear will make it worse.

Eric
Let me try to clarify... Myself and the other rider both felt when initiating the lean, the bikes bars turned into the turn, i.e. right hander the right bar was coming into you, so I had to 1.) stabilize it to get into the turn, 2.) apply heavy counter steer to maintain or increase the lean into the turn depending on throttle which I tried to keep constant. (Haven't been to a TD in 15 months..)

Basically, before the new susp., I could "flick" the tail end of the bike underneath me side to side with ease (similar to warming your tires). Now, with no neutral steering, it is resistent either way you turn.

Looking to pull the 10mm shim and start from there with adjustments, was just curious if the 5mm shim was even necessary now that the Penske is in... Don't remember the model (9700 series or something), but it is the best one they offer for the RC, guess I need to study up on it...]

Also, have to put out considerable more effort to turn compared to where I was with stock susp. 5mm dropped front and 10mm raised rear with softer stock spring...
Thanks,
DR
 

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How many second hand Öhlins shocks have sold on this site in the last six months? I sold a double clicker in anticipation of buying one of the last new triple clickers, but found a good enough deal on a used one ($700) that I was also able to get a set of clipons and rearsets. They aren't unobtainium. New ones will be shortly, but the used ones will be around as long as people like us keep riding these dinosaurs.

I've never ridden an RC with any other shock, and I'm not a fast guy, but the fast guys give advice, and I'll listen.
 

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Let me try to clarify... Myself and the other rider both felt when initiating the lean, the bikes bars turned into the turn, i.e. right hander the right bar was coming into you, so I had to 1.) stabilize it to get into the turn, 2.) apply heavy counter steer to maintain or increase the lean into the turn depending on throttle which I tried to keep constant. (Haven't been to a TD in 15 months..)

Basically, before the new susp., I could "flick" the tail end of the bike underneath me side to side with ease (similar to warming your tires). Now, with no neutral steering, it is resistent either way you turn.

Looking to pull the 10mm shim and start from there with adjustments, was just curious if the 5mm shim was even necessary now that the Penske is in... Don't remember the lodel (9700 series or something), but it is the best one they offer for the RC, guess I need to study up on it...]

Also, have to put out considerable more effort to turn compared to where I was with stock susp. 5mm dropped front and 10mm raised rear with softer stock spring...
Thanks,
DR
I'm a neophyte with this stuff, but my initial reaction is that a different profile on the front tire might help, try more of a V profile, makes understeer almost impossible?
 

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The main reason I shifted to Ohlins is not because the WP was "crap". Far from it. I've always been very happy with both WP and Ohlins shocks.
The reason is the WP was giving up the ghost. When it was opened during the final overhaul it was found to have lots of corrosion on the inside, the ring was pretty banged up and the cylinder lining was heavily pitted. :eek:
The rebound damping needle was almost unrecognizable due to corrosion.
Since it didn't leak I can only suppose the previous owner had it overhauled by someone who used contaminated fluid.
Sadly I didn't take any pictures but it was a pretty sad sight. :(
 

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The main reason I shifted to Ohlins is not because the WP was "crap". Far from it. I've always been very happy with both WP and Ohlins shocks.

Think about last year in World Superbike. Johnny Rea was a backmarker for the first half of the season and the all of the sudden he was a contender for the win always up front. Do you know what the team changed? They went from WP to Ohlins fact!
 

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Amateur PiG Wrestler
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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Tyre Profile

I'm a neophyte with this stuff, but my initial reaction is that a different profile on the front tire might help, try more of a V profile, makes understeer almost impossible?
Will be switching to Power 1s next TD... tyre guy said not to adjust too heavily on the suspensioon untill we try the new tyres and profile... then go at it . . .

Didn't mean to start a thread-jack/debate here.. Oh, that's right... someone else did... :rolleyes: Seriously, thanks all for the tips...

Cheers
 

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What you are saying, is the front end is trying to tuck on corner entry. Yes?

1. What mods are done to the front forks?
2. Under steer can be caused by many things. (low tire pressure, too much height in the rear, too much spring, or compression on the rear, loose or worn head bearings, too soft fork springs, too little fork oil, ect. ect.)
3.When was the last time the forks were freshened up?
4. Any fork oil leaking?
5. Are you getting alot of diving of the forks under heavy braking? (ie are the forks bottoming out?)
6. Are you running a steering damper?

Sorry for all the ?`s but I`m just trying to get a base line of your set up! ;)
 

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I think it would be good to try new tires prior to adjusting your suspension , however, new tires tend to hide/cover up bad steering ailment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 · (Edited)
Here's where the Suspension stands...

What you are saying, is the front end is trying to tuck on corner entry. Yes?

1. What mods are done to the front forks?
2. Under steer can be caused by many things. (low tire pressure, too much height in the rear, too much spring, or compression on the rear, loose or worn head bearings, too soft fork springs, too little fork oil, ect. ect.)
3.When was the last time the forks were freshened up?
4. Any fork oil leaking?
5. Are you getting alot of diving of the forks under heavy braking? (ie are the forks bottoming out?)
6. Are you running a steering damper?

Sorry for all the ?`s but I`m just trying to get a base line of your set up! ;)
Will answer as best possible:

For the 1st ?, it feels like the rig is trying to turn in WITH the bars, not the angle of the bike...as if in a left hander, the bars "turn" left on the axis like I was moving the bitch around the garage... really tore up the front tyre after 4 or so sessions.

1.) RaceTech gold series internals in stock tubes, filled with the best shock fluid available, I forget the brand.
2.) Everything concerning understeer was fine (as far as I could tell) when I had all stock running with only the front dropped 5mm, and a lighter spring with the current 9-10mm shim on the rear. Handled better than normal, but I got weird tyre pattern wear on the rear. RC guru at the track said the rear shock was blown (after 10 years, sure) and it was a rebound/dampening problem. No issues with anything you listed, all new.
3.) When I changed the rear out, the same Mech. did the front with the RT Gold internals... less than a year.
4.) No, minor dripping when I picked her up after the new Susp., Mech. said it was normal and would settle in once under use/pressure. Took her for a neighbourhood spin, no leaks, but noticed the rigid non-neutral) steering.
5.) Not at all... Had new RJLs (sp?) put on the front brake end of last season, and last TD I over braked during 1st session and lifted the rear tyre... so no loss of compression in the front.
6.) Scotts axial dampner in place, never needed to tweak it, it took care of the rough spots just fine... so mid range setings there as well.

Thanks in advance... Tyre change to Power 1s with V profile forthcoming... Cheers,
DReaux

Ps: For what it is worth, the ass-hat buddy of mine with the Duc (speed shifter/dry clutch, and everything else you can buy for a Monster 996) told me my dear RC was an "artifact, great when she came out that year, but you're way behind the technology man..." So I'll be dedicating a web-site to his spunky Pro-Duc ass soon enough... will share the link... Cheers
 

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A couple of things come to mind from your reply. First, I would check the steering bearing condition (with the steering damper removed) and fork alignment. This is due to the fact that you mention "non-neutral steering" even on a neighborhood spin. Second, I would put a zip-tie on the fork lower and check the actual fork travel. Too much preload in the front will definitely make it more prone to understeer. Combined with too little rebound, too stiff steering damper setting, shot steering head bearing and perhaps too little preload in the back, it will understeer for sure. If my Pig would not hold a line (understeer), I wouldn't think of lowering the rear... but I'm not saying that it's not possible if the geometry (front vs rear height) is far off.

Let us know how it turns out, this is interesting. BTW I'm running Öhlins myself so I can't give you more specific setup advice :)
 

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Think about last year in World Superbike. Johnny Rea was a backmarker for the first half of the season and the all of the sudden he was a contender for the win always up front. Do you know what the team changed? They went from WP to Ohlins fact!
I am not Rea. For me both are good enough. :D
 

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It sounds to me like you have way too much trail, even with a 10mm spacer.

What is the eye-to-eye length of the shock?

It doesn't sound like a shock problem. It sounds like a geometry problem.
 

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More than likely you are having a geometry issue. But 1st try checking the head bearings for wear, or loose. Then count clicks of rebound on each fork. Click the rebound clockwise until tight, and make sure to count the clicks. Check both forks, and make sure they are the same count.

When you bounce the front end down while holding the front brakes it should recoil smoothly and quickly with no bouncing. If it comes back up slowly you have a little too much rebound dialed in. This would cause the front tire wear you are speaking of. (along with too much compression on the front) With too little rebound the front end would chatter on corner entry.(along with too little compression the front) Always adjust in small steps. Two clicks of rebound at a time, or 1 round of compression at a time, Until you get her dialed in to your liking.

The zip tie around the fork leg is great for checking fork travel, and spring compression, and I would try this as well.

Hope the new tire helps your problem, but it sounds like you might have to do some minor tweaking to get the beast dialed in. Just curious what track were you at? A new surface or sealers can sometimes really rip up the tires as well!

Hope this helps and would really like to know what you come up with! ;)
 

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You could be running to much air pressure in the front, as well as, a tad to much height in the rear..

The "v" profile P One is what I run on the front and its awesome..run 29 psi cold with tire warmers or 30 without warmers, you'll find out tire choices make a huge difference with turn in issues..

And the RC51 should run with a 996 monster or otherwise...
 

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Amateur PiG Wrestler
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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
1 Litre Duc Eater

You could be running to much air pressure in the front, as well as, a tad to much height in the rear..

The "v" profile P One is what I run on the front and its awesome..run 29 psi cold with tire warmers or 30 without warmers, you'll find out tire choices make a huge difference with turn in issues..

And the RC51 should run with a 996 monster or otherwise...
Don't worry... She runs with the Monster no problem... it is the 2007 Aprilia Tuono that is big bored and putting down 145 RWHP that gives me fits, but my old PiG is right there, so he has no bragging rights...:cool:

Much thanks once again for all the tips and chime ins...

Will update the results once the 17 April TD is done!

Cheers,
DReaux
 

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Don't worry... She runs with the Monster no problem... it is the 2007 Aprilia Tuono that is big bored and putting down 145 RWHP that gives me fits, but my old PiG is right there, so he has no bragging rights...:cool:

Much thanks once again for all the tips and chime ins...

Will update the results once the 17 April TD is done!

Cheers,
DReaux
I have to say when You talking about it, describing what it is doing... it actaully sounds really pretty bad.... and it Makes me wonder IF the forks were reassemblied correctly? #2 IF The Triple Trees were over tighten upon reassembly, it would screw You up BIg Time, just like how you're describing!
#3 Penski shock and 10mm shim sounds to be WAY Too much to me...

One last thing YOU might want to think about... surprised No one has said anything but I would also think about taking it and getting her checked out AND Set-Up via "CompuTrak"....?

I am looking forward to see(finding out) what has messed you up so bad!
Yes, Please keep us informed as to what it is when You find out!..?
 

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Amateur PiG Wrestler
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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Mechanic Work

I have to say when You talking about it, describing what it is doing... it actaully sounds really pretty bad.... and it Makes me wonder IF the forks were reassemblied correctly? #2 IF The Triple Trees were over tighten upon reassembly, it would screw You up BIg Time, just like how you're describing!
#3 Penski shock and 10mm shim sounds to be WAY Too much to me...

One last thing YOU might want to think about... surprised No one has said anything but I would also think about taking it and getting her checked out AND Set-Up via "CompuTrak"....?

I am looking forward to see(finding out) what has messed you up so bad!
Yes, Please keep us informed as to what it is when You find out!..?
Well, I went to the best in the Houston area... All the racers in this area reccommend him, no worries there... + he's a regional expert for RaceTech internals, runs his own shop, etc.

I'm still hung on the 10mm schim being waaaaay over board and when I pull it this Sunday and take a spin, I'll have more to report...

Thanks again You SICK RC51 PUPPIES! I'm way pleased to be back in this $H!TT !! :D

I remain~
The Amateur PiG Wrestler
DR
 

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If the bike has heavy steering and is falling into the corners, it sounds like the front is high, or the rear is low. With 10 mm added to the shock length, it should have very light steering and not have so much trail that it wants to steer into the turn.

The stock shock is 325 mm eye-eye. I have mine set at 331 mm, with no shim. Pull yours out and measure it. It will remove a lot of guesswork.
 
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