[rick1127]

has anyone on here had any dealings with the moriwaki stage 2 cams ive got the chance of a set of them.
there brand new and possibly the last new ones around they cant tell me any hp or torque gains but the pull from mid range is ment to be fantastic.
apparently these were the cams that moriwaki ran in the suzuka endurance races.

 

[RC51Stunna]

has anyone on here had any dealings with the moriwaki stage 2 cams ive got the chance of a set of them.
there brand new and possibly the last new ones around they cant tell me any hp or torque gains but the pull from mid range is ment to be fantastic.
apparently these were the cams that moriwaki ran in the suzuka endurance races.

Does the kit include the mori springs/seats/retainers? If not, you may want to reconsider since they were designed to be used with their st2 cams and if you play the mix and match spring/seat/retainer game, you might not get a winning combination. * I recently posted about having my springs/seats/retainers copied by kibblewhite and if that happens, then you could still get a set of replicas.

I have a set of these myself with the matching springs/seats/retainers but have not installed them yet. I think that the amount of power and torque that will come from installing the cams will be largely dependent on the other mod's that you make to your motor. If you just drop them in to an OEM motor with no other mods, you'll probably get poor results, but add pistons, port and polish heads, add an airbox and intake and I expect very positive gains.

Any specific questions should be asked to Roger directly as he is the one with all the real world experience with these cams. He is as nice is the day is long and will help you right away when you email him.

Stunna

 

[rick1127]

hi stunna
which roger are you refering to??
yes its got all the retainers etc
mods engine wise are ported and flowed heads
qb carbon airbox
moriwaki velocity stacks
qb carbon air snorkel
hrc kit akra exhaust
but considering the tsukigi 2-1

 

[RC51Stunna]

Roger is the owner of revolutionuk.co.uk and they are currently the distributor and only english speaking expert on Moriwaki products. Rogers email address is: [email protected]

Thats excellent that it comes with everything because I found out recently that they had to be purchased completely separately from the cams so it would be easy to have one but not the other.

Send Roger over this same list of mods, tell him what you found and he will be able to accurately speculate what kind of power and torque gains you can expect from the new cam set. You may want/need to do HC pistons while your at it to get the most out of it? Im not sure, but Roger will be able to tell you.

I would jump on them quick! I thought the set I picked up last year was the last set in the world so I had to pull the trigger when they popped up. They're definitely aren't any left for sale through Mori and it sounds like they will never produce them again.

Could you post up pics of your Mori velocity stacks? Id love to have these!
How is the QB intake? Is it the HRC/Mori replica? Pics?

Stunna

hi stunna
which roger are you refering to??
yes its got all the retainers etc
mods engine wise are ported and flowed heads
qb carbon airbox
moriwaki velocity stacks
qb carbon air snorkel
hrc kit akra exhaust
but considering the tsukigi 2-1

 

[RC51Stunna]

BTW, if you don't end up jumping on these please let me know cause my friend Marco is desperately seeking a set.

If something falls through with them or if you would prefer a billet cam, you may consider a group buy with Marco in having my set replicated and sold by pre-order/payment.

I can't say if my replica cams would be billet or not yet since its still just an idea, but this would be the ideal route to go because it would negate possibility of having problems that others have experienced with non-billet cams and alleviate the problems of mixing and matching of springs/seats/retainers that has caused others like Damon problems when things break if not designed properly or not designed to work with the other limited components you can get your hands on.

Plus if anyone here knows anyone personally that is capable of replicating a cam in billet other than Dale, please let me know. I asked Dale already and he had no interest.

Stunna

 

[rick1127]

stunna
ive spoken to roger about these hes not sure of what gains im going to get but he did tell me that when he was at the suzuka race with the moriwaki team he said the mid range pull was out of this world.
the qb airbox is massive you either have to run there carbon tank or cut the bottom out of your own and reshape it.its a copy of the hrc one.
the snorkel is a direct copy of the hrc one and it wont fit the standard fairings due to its size.
ive tried before taking pics of the velocity stacks but for one i cant get a good picture of them for 2 i havnt a clue how to get the picture on here.

 

[rick1127]

according to roger these are billet cams.

 

[RC51Stunna]

Thats interesting Rick, he gave me some very specific power output numbers to expect from the ST1 mori cams, not sure why not the same on the ST2's?

That airbox sounds like a handful to get installed/integrated, but once you do it must work great!
I snagged a mori sealed ram airbox in fiber reinforced plastic a few months ago that Im still working on prepping for install. Luckily this one is a modified version of the HRC airbox that fits under the OEM tank. Too bad they don't sell these anymore, it would be great to see more of them. *I wish I could replicate these and sell them as well!

If you could send me pics of the intake as well that would be great.
Does it not fit with OEM fairings because of the headlights or something else?

The person I bought the cams from had gotten them from Guru Lou. When I asked Lou about these he told me that they were his and he sold them and purchased billet dale warren cams instead. I am 99% sure they were created off the OEM cast cam blank, same thing as the ST1 mori cams. *hopefully Lou chimes in and can verify this.

Stunna

 

[rick1127]

yes its a load wider than the standard so the lights get in the way.
but im going to try and make everything fit so the bike looks standard.
yes roger knows all the figures for the st1,s but he didnt seem to know much about the st2,s but if he hasnt fitted many then i guess things get forgotten.
qb will still make you an airbox but they try not to advertise the fact to much due to the hastle of fitting it and all the modifications you have to do tank pipework etc because people are suddenly on the phone it wont fit etc.

 

[RC51Stunna]

Interesting, look forward to seeing it.

Thats too bad about him not having the ST2 figures.
I have heard from a few people that ST3 cams were also used by certain teams. I thought that the ST2 mori's were exact replicas of the HRC cams but I can't verify that. If they are, then I guess your power output would be determined by the other modifications that you do to the motor along with said ST2 cams.

Makes sense, good to know they are still doing business though cause I was looking at a carbon front fender with a trimmed rear edge they sell and emailed them a question with no response. Do you know a better way to get ahold of them?

If I had replica's of my mori box, Id offer you one to make it easy on ya.

Heres a picture of the mori intake that they sell/sold and a picture of my airbox the way I received it.

Stunna

yes its a load wider than the standard so the lights get in the way.
but im going to try and make everything fit so the bike looks standard.
yes roger knows all the figures for the st1,s but he didnt seem to know much about the st2,s but if he hasnt fitted many then i guess things get forgotten.
qb will still make you an airbox but they try not to advertise the fact to much due to the hastle of fitting it and all the modifications you have to do tank pipework etc because people are suddenly on the phone it wont fit etc.

 

[RVTMAVERICK]

Plus if anyone here knows anyone personally that is capable of replicating a cam in billet other than Dale, please let me know. I asked Dale already and he had no interest.

Stunna

Hey Stun-Gun,

The ONLY guy I had talked to here, Who might have a connection for making Cams... Since He and Thorsten were working on it... IS "Cutaway"
But I haven't seem him here in a Friggin' ***** age!

About Dale: NOT making anymore cams..... I know he said he wasn't going to make any more Years ago because it was\IS such a PIA.,... trying to sell the cams and all the other parts that go with them, after he's had them made.....
However, He has since, had these Beautiful Billet Cams made atleast ONCE\1 more time.... that I know of, After he said "I'm NOT making anymore Cams" (^_-)
Problem IS,... Everybody wants these "Billet Cams" BUT when they hear the Price, it's like WHOLEY CRAP They are Expensive!
So, everyone wants them, but no one wants to pay for them!


Stun-Gun,.. I Bet.... IF You got acouple\afew guys together, and (You are ALL going to have to be willing to wait, tying up your money, Pay HIM Ahead of time! ) Sent him the Money before hand... I seriously would be willing to bet, He WOULD get these Cams made then, YOU all just have to figure before what "Stage Cam" eh! :twocents ...?

Peace Jeff

 

[guru_lou]

I'll add my 2 cents. Stunna is right, the Mori cams were made out of Honda blanks, just like the HRC cams. The stage 2 Mori are identical to the HRC, as are Erion cams. Erion took stock cams and sent them to Webb Cams and had them reground. Anyone can do the same thing.

HRC cams as well as Mori and Erion, are life limited components. What the life span is depends on the rev limit. If the bike is going up to 12.5K rpm, they were changed after every race. If you limit the rpm to 11K, you should get a season or two or three out of them. You really won't know until the cam breaks. JD lost a cam on the dyno.

There are places that can make billet cams for cars, so I imagine that they can make them for bikes too. Dale made great cams; Damon and I both use them. There should be another couple of them out there. Damon and I ran into the same problem with Pankl rods. We got 3 sets and had a hard time getting the last one sold. Check with Damon because he was going to get some new cams made and was going to sell his Dale-made cams.

The Mori box is pretty much a copy of the HRC box, just modified a bit to work with the stock tank, as explained by Stunna. QB is slightly different from the HRC model since they modified their own tank (I have a complete set of QB bodywork, inc. tank, airbox, snorkle, fender, etc.) If you have an HRC airbox, just put some washers under the tank mounting points and use longer bolts to make up the extra space; a cheap solution to a potentially expensive upgrade.

 

[RC51Stunna]

Thanks Mav, I have been in touch with Josh (cutaway) recently and I don't believe he's working with thorsten anymore and therefore is no longer pursuiting the new cams and rather focusing on his battery business and his own stuff.

Dales a great guy and he makes a great product but he seemed completely uninterested in the concept of copying moriwakis work when I asked him if would have any interest in doing so. Maybe its a kiwi thing?
My friends dad owns a CNC shop here in Socal so Im going to find out if he could do the work if someone else created the digital file.

I personally don't want to experiment with different cams/springs/retainers or seats which is why I am choosing to stick with all Moriwaki ST2 components. If it doesn't produce the power I hoped for, I won't be looking to get ST3's made, this is it for the cams.

Hey Stun-Gun,

The ONLY guy I had talked to here, Who might have a connection for making Cams... Since He and Thorsten were working on it... IS "Cutaway"
But I haven't seem him here in a Friggin' ***** age!

About Dale: NOT making anymore cams..... I know he said he wasn't going to make any more Years ago because it was\IS such a PIA.,... trying to sell the cams and all the other parts that go with them, after he's had them made.....
However, He has since, had these Beautiful Billet Cams made atleast ONCE\1 more time.... that I know of, After he said "I'm NOT making anymore Cams" (^_-)
Problem IS,... Everybody wants these "Billet Cams" BUT when they hear the Price, it's like WHOLEY CRAP They are Expensive!
So, everyone wants them, but no one wants to pay for them!


Stun-Gun,.. I Bet.... IF You got acouple\afew guys together, and (You are ALL going to have to be willing to wait, tying up your money, Pay HIM Ahead of time! ) Sent him the Money before hand... I seriously would be willing to bet, He WOULD get these Cams made then, YOU all just have to figure before what "Stage Cam" eh! :twocents ...?

Peace Jeff

 

[RC51Stunna]

Thanks Lou, do you think that Moriwaki also sent their cam blanks somewhere to have them reground or would those have been produced in a different way in house?

Would it be safe to say that the life span of the cams depend on the rev limit AND the duration/lift/material of the aftermarket cam? Because my hope in having my ST2 moris replicated in billet was to elongate the lifespan of the cams by pairing it with no more than an 11k rev limit.

Maybe JD could chime in and let us know what kind of cam it was that was lost and what the rev limit was up to for a reference point.

Im interested to know who Damon is working with to build the new cams and what stage they are/will be. I know he recently got a set of kent cams from the UK with adjustable timing, so maybe those didn't work out?

Thats good to know about the airbox, my friend nick down under has a real beauty of a kit HRC box but no HRC tank yet. Could you tell me if your QB front fender is shortened in the rear section vs an OEM front fender? I emailed them about this but no response. Mike said we may need a shortened rear section of the front fender to clear the new top radiator under hard braking.

I'll add my 2 cents. Stunna is right, the Mori cams were made out of Honda blanks, just like the HRC cams. The stage 2 Mori are identical to the HRC, as are Erion cams. Erion took stock cams and sent them to Webb Cams and had them reground. Anyone can do the same thing.

HRC cams as well as Mori and Erion, are life limited components. What the life span is depends on the rev limit. If the bike is going up to 12.5K rpm, they were changed after every race. If you limit the rpm to 11K, you should get a season or two or three out of them. You really won't know until the cam breaks. JD lost a cam on the dyno.

There are places that can make billet cams for cars, so I imagine that they can make them for bikes too. Dale made great cams; Damon and I both use them. There should be another couple of them out there. Damon and I ran into the same problem with Pankl rods. We got 3 sets and had a hard time getting the last one sold. Check with Damon because he was going to get some new cams made and was going to sell his Dale-made cams.

The Mori box is pretty much a copy of the HRC box, just modified a bit to work with the stock tank, as explained by Stunna. QB is slightly different from the HRC model since they modified their own tank (I have a complete set of QB bodywork, inc. tank, airbox, snorkle, fender, etc.) If you have an HRC airbox, just put some washers under the tank mounting points and use longer bolts to make up the extra space; a cheap solution to a potentially expensive upgrade.

 

[guru_lou]

I'd bet Mori had some cam maker in Japan just grind the cams to their specs, which happened to be the same as the HRC cams.

A higher lift with shorter duration would cetainly but more stress on a cam, but I would expect that failure to show up as premature wear on the lobe face and not cams snapping. Since the Honda cam blanks are cast, I expect that they have an inherent weak point or the cam is hitting a harmonic point that may be causig it to snap.

Damon had the new cams made by Kent. He'll be selling his old ones. Dale made a custom grind to my design with slightly less lift and a shorter duration than HRC cams. I have an engine simulator program that allows me to change parameters to see what effect it has on engine output. The HRC specs brought the power curve in at 8500 rpm and up but was pretty weak below that. Since Loudon is my local track, and is know to be a tight, technical track with no real high speed sweepers, just one long straight and one shorter one, I adjusted the timing to give me better power off the turns. Damon runs at a higher speed track and needed more top end, thus the need for more duration.

If you keep the revs down to 11K, the cams should last a long time, but it's an untested limit.

I'll check the fender this weekend and let you know if it is shortened. However, I don't believe so.

 

[RVTMAVERICK]

Yeah Stun, like I said... it was a long time ago when Josh and I last talked about it... So I figured it had died... But I brought it up thinking IF you were still in touch with Him... Maybe You could find out WHO or Where he was at with this....?

Hey Lou the Guru!

You brought up a Name here, which in turn made Me remember one of the last things I saw that He wrote... about "CAMS"... and an Idea He had but never tried, and FWIW., I thought it was a Great idea!
By the way, JD's idea has to be WELL Over 3 years OLD... +\-



Here's my :twocents About the "Broken Cams": besides RPM, which I'm NOT to sure, how much the RPM's actually has to do with the Cam Breakage...?

Out of ALL the mods., parts, Killer things for ALL MCs., (not just RC51s) The incredible Ideas and work I have seen come from this man... it IS Really Amazing,.. BUT,... He's got 1 idea\Mod. he does, (I don't like at all) and Alot of others have followed doing this mod.,... ("I" personal think, This has MORE to do with the Breakage of cams then even RPM's... again, this IS "MY :twocents ") What I am talking about is Thorsten's "Quiteing Gear" mod.,

"I" would NEVER do this mod., because, I think there's Too Much Vibration & NOISE {I sure Most of us know, "Noise" IS Vibration correct}... After this stuff is removed, there IS ALOT more Noise... YES, you're making it lighter, BUT....
When push comes to Shove... When You start digging in and asking around, I think You WILL find, the huge majority of the Broken CAMS have had their quiteing Gears removed!
Think about it...

What do You think Lou?


OH Yeah, before I forget,.. The broken Cam on JD's dyno... YEP,.. You guessed it... mod'd quiteing gears.



Peace Jeff

 

[guru_lou]

It's been a while since I thought about the removal of the gears, and you're probably right on the mark with your assessment. It's one of those mods that I never paid attention to since it did not yield any appreciable power, but did allow an engine to spin up a bit faster.

It would be hard to determine if the removal of the gears had any detrimental effect on longetivity. You could run 2 engines side by side until one failed and you still couldn't be sure it was due to the gears.

 

[whitw wings]

with that said (and by the way all, this is a GREAT thread) wouldn't a machined/lighter flywheel be a better mod to the removal of the quiteing gears?

 

[guru_lou]

Everything helps. You could also go after a lighter weight stator, lighten the crank, Pankl rods, etc. However, at some point, you'll remove so much mass that you'll lose the "flywheel effect" of that weight and the combustions pulses will be transmitted directly to the rear wheels. With the offset firing order of this engine, it would make it un-raceable if not undriveable.

 

[whitw wings]

Wow, I never thought of that. I know have a built motor with a stock flywheel and stator and have been banging my head wondering of I should throw the Thorsten set up on it that's sitting on the shelf.