[sburns2421]

Alessi has won AMA outdoor motos on it, and it will likely win the World MX championship also. So obviously it is competitive.

What are the implications of having an engine 100cc smaller than the maximum (or only 100cc bigger than the junior class)?

IMO, if the KTM proves a better solution or even equal, you will see other manufacturers move to the smaller engines and push to have the displacement limit lowered. I would think it would be in the best interests of the manufacturers to instantly obsolete all the 450cc bikes (meaning anybody half way serious about racing has to buy a new bike). Plus I assume the 350 is tuned higher and revs higher, meaning a maintenance schedule more like a 250 than a 450.

Thoughts?

 

[mikstr]

I think it'll be interesting to see how this pans out

 

[Jami6989]

HIGHLY doubt Honda will let KTM's product line dictate theirs. In each case, it's more the riders than it is the bike. Cairoli is great but he can't stay up there on pure HP tracks. And Alessi was doing the same thing on his Suzuki last year before he nearly offed himself in practice. Don't think every rider out there will adjust their riding style to suit the 350's momentum-based riding style. Especially in SX, where's it's point and shoot!

 

[sburns2421]

HIGHLY doubt Honda will let KTM's product line dictate theirs. In each case, it's more the riders than it is the bike. Cairoli is great but he can't stay up there on pure HP tracks. And Alessi was doing the same thing on his Suzuki last year before he nearly offed himself in practice. Don't think every rider out there will adjust their riding style to suit the 350's momentum-based riding style. Especially in SX, where's it's point and shoot!

From what I have read, you basically ride it like a 250 four-stroke that has more power. Luckily for the top riders basically all of them started on the smaller bikes and most had success with them. I imagine it wouldn;t be too hard to re-adapt to that riding style.

For Big Four including Honda, it would advantageous to go to the new displacement as it means everyone's current 450 is obsolete.

 

[Jami6989]

For Big Four including Honda, it would advantageous to go to the new displacement as it means everyone's current 450 is obsolete.

Do you have ANY idea how many 450's are sitting in warehouses rotting right now? Introducing a 350 would mean they have ZERO chance of ever moving them. Hell, they're not even racing the 2010s here cuz they didn't want to homologate them cuz they can't bring 400 new units onshore while there are 100s of '09 leftovers. It took Honda years to get their CRF ridable and they would be hard pressed to drop it all and start an entire new displacement. And I'd imagine Honda's development to showroom lagtime is probably around 3 years or so.

Also, Yamaha just came out with an all new bike last year so they're married to that for quite a few years.

The dealer network here in the State for KTM won't allow them to sell that many of them. KTM dealers are very scarce and parts are probably even harder to get for such a new bike with little support here.

 

[sburns2421]

You know what is funny about regional availability is that I have three KTM dealerships within an hour drive of my house, and two Husqvarna. I have to drive a minimum of 100 miles to get to the nearest Ducati, Triumph, or BMW dealer.

 

[DesperateSP2]

I would be very curious to see the maintenance schedule and associated costs.
Around here two strokes are making a come back precisely because of their inferior running costs. There's even a proposal to allow young riders (21 and less) to ride 125 two strokes at national and European 250cc events: many young riders and junior teams simply cannot afford running a 250 four stroke for a whole season.
While European manufacturers seem to be pretty supportive of the proposal (both KTM and Husqvarna have very sweet 125 two strokes available in both enduro and MX form) the Japanese aren't. As Jami said their 450's aren't exactly flying out of showrooms and 250's sales are even worse.
Add on top of that Honda's inexplicable visceral hatred of two strokes and you get an idea.

 

[mikstr]

so much for the (ill-founded) idea of four-strokes making racing less expensive.....

 

[nero]

so much for the (ill-founded) idea of four-strokes making racing less expensive.....

amen, bring back the two smokes, especially the 500's. I miss them...

 

[kdogg78]

I keep an 04 CR500AF in my garage for precisely that reason my good man.

the latest YZ250 2 smoke will stomp the shit out of the 4 stroke couterpart in all performace aspects. Yet people still by the 250f? :banghead


The biggest case of consumer abuse happened when honda put the "twin exhaust" on the 07 crf250. aftermarket exhausts were over a thousand dollars. Needless to say my next bike wont be red.

 

[Jami6989]

the latest YZ250 2 smoke will stomp the shit out of the 4 stroke couterpart in all performace aspects. Yet people still by the 250f? :banghead

The YZ250's counterpart is a 450F? You couldn't race a YZ250 in the Lites class and you would get SMOKED in the 450 class on a YZ250. There really is NO class to race a 2 stroke bike and be at all competitive.

 

[kdogg78]

I meant the displacement equivelent, I was really hoping they would allow the 250 2smoke to race with the 250 4 pokes. Think the manufacturers had anything to say about that rule?

 

[Jami6989]

Think the manufacturers had anything to say about that rule?

Of course, cuz only KTM makes 2 smokes anymore so why would the big 4 ever want 2 strokes to race again?:woot:

 

[sburns2421]

If they don't reduce capacity of the 450 four-strokes they should allow two-strokes of any capacity. My guess is that a modern 500 would be a handful for a 45 minute moto but faster overall with the right rider.

In the Lites class, two-strokes used to be allowed 150cc (maybe 145cc), but they had to have stock stroke. Only KTM to my knowledge actually made a bike to fit it. If that is not enough, maybe 180cc would work.

 

[Jami6989]

If they don't reduce capacity of the 450 four-strokes they should allow two-strokes of any capacity. My guess is that a modern 500 would be a handful for a 45 minute moto but faster overall with the right rider.

In the Lites class, two-strokes used to be allowed 150cc (maybe 145cc), but they had to have stock stroke. Only KTM to my knowledge actually made a bike to fit it. If that is not enough, maybe 180cc would work.

Motos are 30min +2 laps but that's still a long time for these little guys to wrestle a 500.:woot:

And allowing non-production displacements opens the door up for cheating. As long as you weren't in the top 10, you know your bike won't be torn down so privateers can just get 11th's and collect a big check running a cheater bike. There's no way to police punched out bikes without tearing every one down.

 

[K-dogg]

250 two-stroke are legal to race 250 four-strokes in the amateur class per AMA rules.

One such rider taking advantage of the rule!

:rockon

 

[sburns2421]

Motos are 30min +2 laps but that's still a long time for these little guys to wrestle a 500.:woot:

Back in the Johnson/Lechien days were they 40+2 or am I dreaming? It has been some time since I followed outdoors closely.

 

[Jami6989]

Back in the Johnson/Lechien days were they 40+2 or am I dreaming? It has been some time since I followed outdoors closely.

They also ran qualifiers on Saturdays back then too! The sport has been pussified immensely.

 

[kdogg78]

Out here I have done a few WORCS races on the 500AF. 60 Min moto, lap is part MX track and about 3 miles of Desert (around 8 minute laps). I like to do it as a 3 day weekend, learn the track on friday race on saturday and sun morning. makes for a good weekend.

After about the 45 minute mark I really can feel the effects of wrestling the 500 around. Out at 395 I was getting crazy whiskey throttle and at one point managed to have both legs on one side of the bike still finished in one piece though.

One day I will have to break down and get a new bike, and probably a 450, but as of now the 500 two stroke has the power advantage. put it in a modern sorted chassis and you have one bad mofo :rtfm

 

[Jami6989]

One day I will have to break down and get a new bike, and probably a 450, but as of now the 500 two stroke has the power advantage. put it in a modern sorted chassis and you have one bad mofo :rtfm

I believe Billy Mac rode a 500 in a CRF chassis in the last round after he wrapped up the championship but the engine rattled loose and he eventually had a mechanical. U can hear the beast halfway through this video.

YouTube - Racer X Films: Billy Mackenzie