[polePosition]

Jami6989 here (on the feasts and elbows thread when commenting on Colin Edwards)

He has had more than his fair share of factory rides and some of there were ONLY cuz he's butt-buddies with Rossi. He wasn't neglected, he just underachieved.

had me thinking:
Did you noticed when was the last time we had a MotoGP champion coming out from WSBK to lead the MotoGP?

Short history:
Alex Criville GP250.
KRJ don't recall - who is he? (and anyway it was GP250)
Rossi GP250.
Nicky AMA SBK.
Stoner 250 in the UK.
Jorge GP250.

In fact the last WSBK rider who also became a GP500/MotoGP champion was Doohan back in 1998 who came from WSBK and won 5 GP500 championships. But he joined the GP as far as 1989.

Make you wonder how good a pedigree WSBK is for a GP rider and more importantly why is it so?

 

[rjjablo]

Wsbk

Sir Carl Fogarty 4 WSBK Championships 500CC Results Zero
Troy Bayliss 3 WSBK Championships, MotoGp Results 1 win
Max Biaggi 1 WSBK Championship, 500CC/MotoGp 13 Wins
Scott Russell 1 WSBK Championship 500CC results Zero
John Kocinski 1 WSBK Championship 500CC results 4 wins
Frankie Chili Perenial contendor WSBK 500cc results 1 win

 

[Busy Little Shop]

Make you wonder how good a pedigree WSBK is for a GP rider and more importantly why is it so?

What I gather form reading Motocorse which evaluates both the Gp and
WSBK seasons is that because only a few 750 WSBK bikes were exotic and
special purpose enough for a Gp rider to explore... namely the RC30
ZX7R RC45 R7... most were pedestrian street bikes in a racing
environment...

 

[rjjablo]

Feeder Series

As a feeder series to 500cc and MotoGP WSBK has one critical flaw.

The vast majority of the champions have been Ducati mounted.

This has only recently changed with Ducati's entrance into MotoGP and attempts to promote its WSBK champions have not been the best.

Bayliss has three WSBK Championships with Ducati and a lone win in MotoGP.

 

[RockyMt]

For a minute there, I was gonna try and add to the discourse, naaaah. :banghead

Semper Fi! :rockon

-Rocky-

 

[duc1036]

What I gather form reading Motocorse which evaluates both the Gp and
WSBK seasons is that because only a few 750 WSBK bikes were exotic and
special purpose enough for a Gp rider to explore... namely the RC30
ZX7R RC45 R7... most were pedestrian street bikes in a racing
environment...

I was about to post and hopefully contribute also.
Then the classic Larry post with just enough of a twist for the neophyte to be misled.

 

[dj_wawa]

 

[sburns2421]

250GP is more of a feeder series for sure these, but this is because the whole circus travelled together, 125-250-500.

You mention Doohan as the last superbike rider to win in GP. But before Doohan, 500GP was the exclusive domain of superbike/dirt track riders. Roberts Sr, Lawson, Rainey, Gardner, Schwantz all came from national series on superbikes. There was no WSBK before 1988.

 

[BC999S]

Sir Carl Fogarty 4 WSBK Championships 500CC Results Zero
Troy Bayliss 3 WSBK Championships, MotoGp Results 1 win
Max Biaggi 1 WSBK Championship, 500CC/MotoGp 13 Wins
Scott Russell 1 WSBK Championship 500CC results Zero
John Kocinski 1 WSBK Championship 500CC results 4 wins
Frankie Chili Perenial contendor WSBK 500cc results 1 win

With respect, I believe Fogarty only had one wild card ride on a 500. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And I think Doohan only entered 2 WSBK races.

Anyway...I've never considered WSBK to be a feeder series to MotoGP. In fact, I'd say the reverse is more true. Chili, Biaggi, Corser (up for a year then back), Toseland (same), Vermuellen (stayed slightly longer), Melandri.

Separate from the above, I'd like to se Edwards come back so he can resume his winning ways and inject a little more excitement into the series.

 

[Jami6989]

I'd like to se Edwards come back so he can resume his winning ways and inject a little more excitement into the series.

I just don't see him being able to turn that hunger back on. He's been laboring in GPs for so long in the middle of the pack that I don't see him coming back and trading paint like the hungry kids trying to come up through the ranks.

 

[Busy Little Shop]

Separate from the above, I'd like to se Edwards come back so he can resume his winning ways and inject a little more excitement into the series.

Edwards next winning way is to star in a new movie "Harry Potter and the Blocked Colin"...

 

[stk0308]

With respect, I believe Fogarty only had one wild card ride on a 500. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Very few wildcard rides, to be sure. And a couple were on the hopeless, at the time, Cagiva.

And I think Doohan only entered 2 WSBK races.

He was not a WSB regular. He showed up at 2 Australian rounds and a few Asian rounds to shock the regulars. But he was a superbike rider first.

 

[polePosition]

250GP is more of a feeder series for sure these, but this is because the whole circus travelled together, 125-250-500.

You mention Doohan as the last superbike rider to win in GP. But before Doohan, 500GP was the exclusive domain of superbike/dirt track riders. Roberts Sr, Lawson, Rainey, Gardner, Schwantz all came from national series on superbikes. There was no WSBK before 1988.

And this is my point exactly, at some point in time WSBK has moved away from being a pedigree for the GP 500.

One might presume that the reason for that is that GP bikes has much more possibilities of tuning and track adaptation than in the past and became over time more similar to the ones found in the GP250.
However WSBK bikes were unable to do this same evolutional process due to homologation rules limitations, limiting chassis, suspension and other.

Today with the introduction of GP2 class I would say this still holds and even stronger claim than before.

What is your view?

 

[sburns2421]

You could argue that the key to fast laps on an 800 is high corner speed. Depsite making 200+ hp, the 800 doesn't have huge amounts of torque compared to the 990 engines. Electronics are better of course, and most importantly tires are made to perform best with this riding style.

It is no coincidence that most successful riders in MotoGP came from 250, because the same high corner speed style is required. It is probably a chicken or the egg situation.

I happen to enjoy WSBK more than MotoGP over the past 9 years of four strokes in GP. I will agree that in general the level of talent is higher in MotoGP. I don't think at any time in WSBK history has the "best rider in the world" been in WSBK instead of GP in any given year.

One thing to think about though is that very few riders who came up through GP have had much success in WSBK either. Biaggi is the obvious exception, other GP regulars have won races but never been real championship contenders.

 

[Turbo329]

If it wasn't for Rossi's contribution to GP I'd probably not even watch it.

WSBK has had better racing, hungrier riders. For me it's more exciting because it's production based and that's always nice.

GP is silly. Bikes we'll never ride, racing based on $$$, the points tally is not that great in my opinion. 25,16,13,11 sucks for points.

 

[duc1036]

And this is my point exactly, at some point in time WSBK has moved away from being a pedigree for the GP 500.

One might presume that the reason for that is that GP bikes has much more possibilities of tuning and track adaptation than in the past and became over time more similar to the ones found in the GP250.
However WSBK bikes were unable to do this same evolutional process due to homologation rules limitations, limiting chassis, suspension and other.

Today with the introduction of GP2 class I would say this still holds and even stronger claim than before.

What is your view?

My view is that you are wrong on a number of counts. GP bikes have always, in the modern era, been prototype machines with high levels of adjustability and rules that allowed re-designs if not a whole new chassis from race to race. WSBK are production based motorcycles. One of the areas that is opened is suspension. The two classes have very little to do with each other. Ducati took advantage of numerous favorable rules to introduce homologated frames in small batches, Honda took advantage (when it wanted to win) of it's corporate size and resources to produce limited production homologation specials. Other companies also did what Honda did on a smaller scale. I assume by GP2 you mean Moto 2. Here the engine is controlled but the chassis is completely open. Again it has no bearing to production based racing.

 

[polePosition]

My view is that you are wrong on a number of counts. GP bikes have always, in the modern era, been prototype machines with high levels of adjustability and rules that allowed re-designs if not a whole new chassis from race to race. WSBK are production based motorcycles. One of the areas that is opened is suspension. The two classes have very little to do with each other. Ducati took advantage of numerous favorable rules to introduce homologated frames in small batches, Honda took advantage (when it wanted to win) of it's corporate size and resources to produce limited production homologation specials. Other companies also did what Honda did on a smaller scale. I assume by GP2 you mean Moto 2. Here the engine is controlled but the chassis is completely open. Again it has no bearing to production based racing.

I made no claim as to the GP and WSBK bikes to be similar (actualy I agree with all that you've written).
However I did made claim to the capabilites of the riders which compete in each of these world championships.

Adjusting a bike, providing feedback to the technicians and engineers and adapting riding styles are only but some of the rider capabilties which differ these legendary riders from the rest of us mortals.

 

[polePosition]

You could argue that the key to fast laps on an 800 is high corner speed. Depsite making 200+ hp, the 800 doesn't have huge amounts of torque compared to the 990 engines. Electronics are better of course, and most importantly tires are made to perform best with this riding style.
It is no coincidence that most successful riders in MotoGP came from 250, because the same high corner speed style is required. It is probably a chicken or the egg situation.

Indeed the 800s game is a game of corner speed, limiting other techniques.
800s have been around only since 2007.
During the GP500 days and 990cc we didn't see much success from WSBK champions riding in the MotoGP class and we had a few: Neil Hodgson, Troy Bayliss, Colin Edwards.
We'll have to see about Ben Spies but at least for now it doesn't seem to work for him as well (maybe 2011).

....
I happen to enjoy WSBK more than MotoGP over the past 9 years of four strokes in GP. I will agree that in general the level of talent is higher in MotoGP. I don't think at any time in WSBK history has the "best rider in the world" been in WSBK instead of GP in any given year.

Since MotoGP became 800s this is the case for me as well.
During the 500cc days GP was my favorite.

....
One thing to think about though is that very few riders who came up through GP have had much success in WSBK either. Biaggi is the obvious exception, other GP regulars have won races but never been real championship contenders.

My argument is that their experties was no longer requiered.
WSBK run 20+ laps and 30+ min races, MotoGP runs 30+ laps and 42+ min races.
This is a huge diffrence in tire management and degradation.
It is a huge diffrence in rider physical and mental endurance.
And WSBK bikes are diffrent in the possobility to tune chassis and suspension.

A motogp rider ability does not play an important role when comming to the WSBK.
A talented WSBK rider can reveal its abilities in motoGP - and yet it does not happen ...much.

 

[mrgrn]

If it wasn't for Rossi's contribution to GP I'd probably not even watch it.

WSBK has had better racing, hungrier riders. For me it's more exciting because it's production based and that's always nice.

GP is silly. Bikes we'll never ride, racing based on $$$, the points tally is not that great in my opinion. 25,16,13,11 sucks for points.

except it was ducati for a decade in WSBK - boring IMO