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Discussion Starter #1
Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem?
Or do they still use the shitty out source supplier?
What year bikes have not seen the flaking issues?
If any. 748/916/996/998 style bikes
Will OEM rockers still flake?
 
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Discussion Starter #2
Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (superbike2001)

IMO, no.
No idea what supplier(s) they use.
I think all years of 4-valvers have had flaking rockers, some more than others. I've heard of 2-valve rockers flaking too.
Yes, there's a chance they'll all flake.

Rockers have a tough life..
 
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Discussion Starter #3
Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (Speeddog830)

I believer the problem was fixed from the 01 and later. However, I've heard of some having problems though. I never had problems with mine with rocker arms. I have 20,800 miles rocker arm problem free
 
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Discussion Starter #4
yeah, they fixed the problem, by changing to a different engine(testastretta)
95-previous years didn't have rocker problems
97-02 could have rocker flaking issues
998's and 749/999 -no problems

If you get the replacement ducati rockers put in, I would assume those are from the same maker/supplier as the oem ones in our bikes.

You can always get the rockers refinished. A little more $$, but no flaking problems again.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Re: (El_Toro)

Yeah, they cost reduced the rockers to $45. Now they are disposable.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
a friend of mine just replaced some rockers and cams in his Bandit, guess it's not just limited to Ducatis
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (superbike2001)

Nope, never fixed. Like Jason said, the parts are now much cheaper but you'll still get dinged on the labor unless your dealer, shop, you gives you a break on the labor (How are dealers handling the labor charge associated to defective rocker replacement, Jason?)

As to replacement rockers, if they're Ducati supplied, I don't see why the wouldn't show the same sort of wear again. I don't know the machanical differences but is there a physical difference b/w the testa rockers and the previous generation? Are they interchangable?

Usually people skip the Ducati supplied rockers and get either Guy Martin's rockers or Nichols rockers.

I guess they "fixed" their problem in the testa motors, as I've yet to hear of a 998, 999 or 749 showing rocker problems. Hopefully, this new batch of motors is "cured."
 
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Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (hubert)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hubert »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nope, never fixed. Like Jason said, the parts are now much cheaper but you'll still get dinged on the labor unless your dealer, shop, you gives you a break on the labor (How are dealers handling the labor charge associated to defective rocker replacement, Jason?)

As to replacement rockers, if they're Ducati supplied, I don't see why the wouldn't show the same sort of wear again. I don't know the machanical differences but is there a physical difference b/w the testa rockers and the previous generation? Are they interchangable?

Usually people skip the Ducati supplied rockers and get either Guy Martin's rockers or Nichols rockers.

I guess they "fixed" their problem in the testa motors, as I've yet to hear of a 998, 999 or 749 showing rocker problems. Hopefully, this new batch of motors is "cured."</TD></TR></TABLE>

We usualy find the rockers during 6K and 12K services. Ducati has been good about picking up the tab on the rockers even if they are out of warranty, but they do not cover labor if it's out of warranty. But since we are in there we just bump the labor cost a little bit. For example we had a 748 in with 7 bad rockers last week. We added $75 to the repair order to cover the tech's additional time. Not bad for a bike that was out of warranty for three years!

The 749/999 has a completely different setup. he rockers are about 60% of the size of teh 748/916/996 bikes and set up at a better angle. You actualy run the clearances a lot looser than on the older bikes too. I have only seen one bad Testasretta rocker so far.

Not to take anything from Nichols, etc. But I do have a box somewhere that has about 8 of these rockers that did not flake, but they have big grooves in them. So nothing is a "solution"...........except meybe a 998/749/999
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (section8superbike)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by section8superbike »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

We usualy find the rockers during 6K and 12K services. Ducati has been good about picking up the tab on the rockers even if they are out of warranty, but they do not cover labor if it's out of warranty. But since we are in there we just bump the labor cost a little bit. For example we had a 748 in with 7 bad rockers last week. We added $75 to the repair order to cover the tech's additional time. Not bad for a bike that was out of warranty for three years!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is a very fair labor bump.
Do the customers who have these problems simply choose Ducati rockers or do they opt for aftermarket rockers?
I've heard that if the customer chooses aftermarket rockers, Ducati voids their warranty coverage on the remaining valvetrain, is this true?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The 749/999 has a completely different setup. he rockers are about 60% of the size of teh 748/916/996 bikes and set up at a better angle. You actualy run the clearances a lot looser than on the older bikes too. I have only seen one bad Testasretta rocker so far.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for clearing that up. Different heads - I should have assumed the valvetrain configuration would be different.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Not to take anything from Nichols, etc. But I do have a box somewhere that has about 8 of these rockers that did not flake, but they have big grooves in them. So nothing is a "solution"...........except meybe a 998/749/999</TD></TR></TABLE>

If I ever get a 4 valve it'll be a 998.
One question though, what about the special bikes like the 916SPS, 996SPS and Rs - weren't they assembled with Corse parts - have you ever seen these special bikes w/ rocker problems?
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (hubert)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hubert »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One question though, what about the special bikes like the 916SPS, 996SPS and Rs - weren't they assembled with Corse parts - have you ever seen these special bikes w/ rocker problems?</TD></TR></TABLE>

yep these bikes have rocker problems too
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (hubert)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hubert »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That is a very fair labor bump.
Do the customers who have these problems simply choose Ducati rockers or do they opt for aftermarket rockers?
I've heard that if the customer chooses aftermarket rockers, Ducati voids their warranty coverage on the remaining valvetrain, is this true?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not sure about the warranty thing. It has never come up.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hubert »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


If I ever get a 4 valve it'll be a 998.
One question though, what about the special bikes like the 916SPS, 996SPS and Rs - weren't they assembled with Corse parts - have you ever seen these special bikes w/ rocker problems?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have senn flaked rockers in these also.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (section8superbike)

I have theory that you all might be able to shed some light on. I have seen brand new stock cams they are rougher then sh!t. It is my theory that the first set of rockers burnish and smooth the cams and that the second set will last longer because of it. Is that too close to the chicken and the egg?
 
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Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (908SSP)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 908SSP »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have theory that you all might be able to shed some light on. I have seen brand new stock cams they are rougher then sh!t. It is my theory that the first set of rockers burnish and smooth the cams and that the second set will last longer because of it. Is that too close to the chicken and the egg?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is that to say that Testastretta engines come with smoother cams? Ducati completely changed the design and process of fitment on Testastretta.
 
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Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (908SSP)

I think that it’s important to differentiate here between flaking and wear.




Premature wear (perhaps accelerated by the inherent 90-second lubrication delay during startup) likely due to inadequate chrome thickness. 888 and first production run 916 rockers didn’t exhibit this problem. Note that no chrome flaking has occurred on these rockers.




Damage to the chrome plating probably caused by an error in setting the valve lash clearance too tight resulting in an interference with the cam lobe. No wear.




Here, flaking of the chrome finish at the rocker’s edge probably caused by a manufacturing process defect. For the ‘96 model year Ducati shifted to a new outside supplier and flaking issues began. Note that no wear is evident adjacent to this area indicating adequate lubrication.
 
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Discussion Starter #16
That's good stuff, Shazaam. All of my rockers look like the first of your pics. I have NOT seen any signs of the chrome flaking from the rockers, or in the screen at any stage, but they all show wear like that, to some extent or another.

On the horizontal, exhaust openers - they both have a definite "ridge" worn across the face of the rocker - again, no flaking is evident to me, but there is a narrow wear ridge right across the face - http://www.motodyn.com/748Sbad2rockers/index

I'm interested in your thinking that this type of wear may be due to the 90 second circulation thing at startup.

I read the Sigmaperformance blurb on this - but fnd it difficult to correlate the oil circulation to a "timing" thing (90 seconds), regardless of RPM.

The oil pump is a positive displacement device - it pumps roughly the same amount of oil for each RPM - so I don't frankly understand why it would take 90 seconds for the oil to circulate at 1500RPM and also 90 seconds to circulate at 4500RPM - I would have thought he oil would get there 3 times faster at 4500 RPM!

I do understand that the impact on the rocker is greater at higher RPM's than lower RPM's - and maybe that's the issue when there is no oil film yet to protect the rockers?

When is someone going to develop a nice simple separate electric oil pump system that pumps oil via separate oil lines to nozzles on the valve covers - that we can run for a few seconds prior to start-up?
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Re: (Old Baldy)

I'm not sure about the 90 second thing......let your bike sit for a week, then pull the rocker access plates and see that there's oil all over everything. Maybe oil doesn't get pumped up there right away, but there's always gonna be a film on everything. Just let it sit and idle for a few minutes before you go revving it.......
 
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Re: (TS)

I agree with the oil being there!

It dosent matter the stock just arent very strong!

I had all my rockers replated at MBP and after another 6k will post results!
 
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Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (Shazaam!)

Finally, something that Shazaam and I don't agree about.

I've got some photomicrographs of the grey patches that show the area is rife with cracking.

And if you look at flaked rockers with a microscope, you'll see that it's bordered by thinning grey cracking material....that tells me that the grey patches precede complete failure. More than happy to forward pictures to those interested. Just need to remember where they are.

The rockers that Nichols sells are Megacycles. They grind down the contact areas of the rockers about 0.050" and build it back up with a hard face welding rod and then grind it back to the correct profile. While that heating isn't the greatest for a forged part, there have been damn few reports of failed Megacycle parts and they've got more parts in the field than any other alternatives. To include being used in AMA factory race bikes.

Megacycles grooved? I've seen that on 851 rockers with a lot of miles - due to a lack of attention to maintenance and hard riding. I suspect the same cause.

The alternatives are; get the $45 stockers and keep an eye on your oil - and make sure your service facility pulls cams and inspects the rockers during your valve service. It takes an extra 20 minutes and all the good shops do it - then just replace the rockers as a matter of maintenance, there are two places that will replate: one place in Canada and one place in NH.....I've seen a race motor built at the NH facility with 2 replates - after 400 miles, one of the replates needed replacing, I don't have much information on the replates from Canada, and the third is Megacycle. They're almost twice the price of the replates or the stockers, but they'll outlast the rest of your motor if you keep up on your valves.

if your 4 valver is 1996 or newer (and not testastretta), it will flake rockers. 748's and hard ridden 9XX's will go first, ST4's will flake last. Average for the superbikes is 6k service to see the first failure. For the ST's, it's the 12k service.

If the cams aren't pulled, the failure won't be found until later. And most shops will not report the grey patches as being failed rockers....because technically, they haven't. But they will - guaranteed.

To forestall failures, keep your valve lash figures towards the tight end (because hard chrome doesn't like the slap of a loose-set rocker), change oil often with good stuff, keep an eye on the oil prefilter screen, and warmt he bike up before you take off.
 
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Re: Did Ducati ever fix the rocker problem? (Buckelew)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Buckelew »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Finally, something that Shazaam and I don't agree about.

I've got some photomicrographs of the grey patches that show the area is rife with cracking.

And if you look at flaked rockers with a microscope, you'll see that it's bordered by thinning grey cracking material....that tells me that the grey patches precede complete failure. More than happy to forward pictures to those interested. Just need to remember where they are.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I suggest you look at the Nichols rockers at 6k too ... as all wearing surfaces will end up with this sort of pattern ... EVEN car rockers that are not desmo but simple pushrod rubbish.

Something does not rub against something else and not end up with any wear marks at all ... just does not happen!

If your rockers were even 1 thousand times harder than the cam ... I bet they still would exhibit a wear pattern ... and your CAM would be fncked.

Just my 2 cents from looking at car rockers for many, many years. Infact Cam followers in many overhead cam engines actually have the cam and cam follower out of line (ie. not in line) to make the cam follower slowly rotate in it's housing. Why?, to even out the wear on the cam follower face.

Pete
 
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