Speedzilla Forums banner
1 - 20 of 73 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,388 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I figured I would post a productive Speedzilla thread to get away from all the V4 crap that's spewed here.

Corner Entry has always plagued me, from looking deep into the corner to actually finding the traction. I'm excellent mid corner and decent on the exits but the entry puzzles me.

Can you guys chime in and post suggestions on how you 'Find The Traction' when entering corners? Please state your techniques from braking all the way to the apex and what you feel from the front tire.

I gotta sort this out before I retire from riding. lol :cool:

I recently read that a tire reaches it's maximum traction when you feel a slight sliding sensation all the way through the corner. If you feel like you're on rails then that means you can go through the corner faster. What are your thoughts on this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,748 Posts
When you hang off, move your upper body as far forward as is comfortable, it puts more weight on the front tire. Also, set up way before you enter the corner, and get your weight on the inside peg. See the line and mentally draw it on the ground all the way through the corner. I do my braking before entry, or before the apex at least, the sooner you get back on the gas, the more stable the bike gets. Remember that you are riding the front in, and the back out. Smoother is always faster, and you don't have to scrub your tires off to go fast, concentrate on being "cleaner". They say that Jorge uses the least amount of his tires than anybody else, but he halls ass because he is smooth. Think of making your whole lap as seamless and clean as possible, see it in your head before you do it, the bike will go where your eyes point it...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,388 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
When you hang off, move your upper body as far forward as is comfortable, it puts more weight on the front tire. Also, set up way before you enter the corner, and get your weight on the inside peg. See the line and mentally draw it on the ground all the way through the corner. I do my braking before entry, or before the apex at least, the sooner you get back on the gas, the more stable the bike gets. Remember that you are riding the front in, and the back out. Smoother is always faster, and you don't have to scrub your tires off to go fast, concentrate on being "cleaner". They say that Jorge uses the least amount of his tires than anybody else, but he halls ass because he is smooth. Think of making your whole lap as seamless and clean as possible, see it in your head before you do it, the bike will go where your eyes point it...

Ah, so there's one thing I'm doing wrong. I typically push my weight back in the seat and that's why I can't feel what the front end is doing. Plus, the problem is probably compounded since I generally run a stiffer setting in the forks.

So if I move up on the tank more and soften the compression damping a click or two that may help me with front end feel going into the corner.

Too bad the season over and I probably won't be able to test this out if I don't make it to NJMP next Saturday.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
409 Posts
This is one area where I think good equipment and setup really does make a big difference. I know 90% of lap time reduction is rider but trail braking is all about confidence and you can't be confident if you can't feel what the front tire is doing.

The slight sliding sensation for me is more of a slight squirm or step out if you hit a small bump. If I feel the front unloading at big lean I lift the bike just a bit to attempt to get it back. I guess I can't explain it very well because I just don't ride that hard anymore. Just trackdays now for me.

I ride on ice in the winter with a studded dirt bike. It's a good way to practice trail braking because it's easy to get it back without crashing but it will tear the knobs off you tire. The real ice racers don't trail brake so don't do it around them.:D
 

·
Ducatilicious
Joined
·
2,425 Posts
While at work I don't have time to type out complete corner entry instruction but what I've found to be the biggest issue with riders that are not novice nor expert is that they rush the corner. Rushing the corner f*ckes the whole corner up. Slow in - fast out. Eventually your pace and comfort level increases and so does your corner speed. :)
 

·
V4 CyclePath...
Joined
·
6,827 Posts
Tools to corner like a pro:

1 Find the your corners turn in point...
2 After reaching your turn in point shift your eyes to the apex...
3 Applied one quick steering input and leave the bars alone...
4 Roll on the throttle as early as possible because the bike is now under
the rear contact patch control... the front can actually be lifted off
the ground and the bike will track on line...


Done right and next time you'll be looking to take the corner with at
least 1 more mph of speed... your bike will be stable... you'll feel in
more control... maybe even relaxed like a pro...

Hanging Off...
Hanging a cheek off the seat works well because it sets your body in a
stable position... but you must get into that position well before you roll off
the gas... pull on the brakes or execute a steering input... hanging off and
trying to steer the bike is a common mistake...


Tools to get your confidence back...

When my confidence is shaken I kept on riding at a reduce pace and
treated my condition as a barrier to overcome...

First signs to watch are my vision... when it starts to narrow and hunt
frantically for my awareness... I'll started making mistakes... so I
concentrate on keeping my field of vision wide... only with wide vision will I
see enough space to stay calm and begin make accurate decisions that
boost confidence...

Next is breathing... I monitor for rapid and short rates and then
concentrate on long slow breaths...

Finally I busy my thoughts with the 3 tools of cornering more effectively...

1 How quickly do I steer the bike???
2 How much lean angle do I use???
3 Where do I begin my turn in point???

Points to grade my performance in each corner and assign a number from 1 to 100...

1 did I rolling off the gas to early???

2 did i tighten on the bars???

3 did I narrow my vision???

4 did I fix my attention too long on something???

5 did I steer too early or not quick enough???

6 did I brake when it wasn't necessary???

If I start receiving grades in the 75% range do I begin feeling a real rise in
my level of confidence...


TIRES and TRACTION...

Street tires are designed to give a warning wiggle before they let go... but what's
more important is understanding the technical knowledge of controlling a rear wheel slide...

Remember the bars set the learn angle... and once you get the lean angle set the rear
steers the bike... at this point you may roll on the throttle and feel for the first signs of a
wiggle... a wiggle is the preamble to a slide... some riders speak about sliding the rear
as fun... it is fun if they can overcome the fear to chop the throttle and tighten on the
bars... which immediately establishes traction and is the preamble to a high side...

SLIDING:

At the limit of adhesion a motorcycle automatically compensates for rear end slides by
pointing the front wheel into the slide... if the body tenses up or turns the bars to straighten
up they risk high siding... the key once again is the bars not the body...

Remember a bike in a slide will handle in a predictable manner... it's
the rider that's the wild variable component... Front end slides
usually occur after too much weight forces the tire past it's traction
limit... The most likely cause is rider error... a rider must get on
the gas soon enough to transfer some weight from the front tire to the
rear tire... ideally you want a 40% 60% front to rear weight bias...
far more front end slides have been saved than lost using this
technique...


Getting greasy is a gradual and progressive warning that the tire is
working beyond it's temp range... it just don't happen all at once...
street tires are designed to give a rider plenty of warning that they
have had enough whereas race tires give it up all at once...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,020 Posts
Lots of variables of course, several of which are proper suspension settings, proper tire pressure for conditions, track familiarity, etc.

When I was racing, I'd get all my downshifts (if needed) out of the way and tidy the bike up before tipping in (make sure the suspension was settled). For me, being smooth was critical, as it always seemed to lead to more speed versus coming in with a Kevin Schwantz banzi move (which you would sometimes have to do regardless...while racing).

Completely agree with slower in, faster out. When I was doing really well and "in the zone", I would actually trail brake to the apex, one cheek off the bike, forward on the seat, looking as far forward through the turn as possible, puck on track (if the turn was slow enough).

I found that if I went in the turn a bit slower than I thought I should, I always seemed to be able to get on the gas sooner immediately after the apex. Staying forward on the seat on exit is very (as in VERY) important because as you power out on the side of the tire (with a smaller circumference), you can actually unintentionally wheelie...and doing that while cranked over usually leads to a situation that you can't correct with your knee (i.e. low side...ask me how I know).

Completely agree with ride the front in, ride the rear out (never heard it termed that way, but an excellent way to describe it). I am a suspension idiot and always had someone better than me adjust my suspension and tell me what they were doing. I was blessed with two bikes (ZX-6R and 998R) where the front always felt planted no matter how I was abusing the bike. That resulted in me having great confidence in braking and cornering, and it helped with my results.

Anyway, back to corner entry. During practice, I would incrementally experiment with braking just a little bit later or trying just a little bit different line until I felt the front begin to unsettle, then I would back off just a bit having found the limit (for me) that signaled impending doom. I never used the rear brake except to control a wheelie, and I never backed the bike in. The only time my tires were sliding is if I was executing a two wheel drift through a very fast corner, or spinning the rear on corner exit (cool to do but probably not very efficient). Usually, it seemed as if the bike was on rails (like a slot car), and as long as I didn't exceed the "impending doom" limit, I was OK.

About braking. I would get all the heavy braking out of the way while the bike was upright, and get my body in position as much as possible before tip in. If I did trail brake, it was with a very light touch, finishing up braking by gently letting the lever out so I didn't upset the suspension. :twocents
 

·
Ducatilicious
Joined
·
2,425 Posts
I recently read that a tire reaches it's maximum traction when you feel a slight sliding sensation all the way through the corner.
Always felt to me like I was grating cheese, and then I fell. Seriously, If you're sliding the tires, you're either getting paid to ride or you're crashing. :rolleyes:
 

·
chimp on my shoulder
Joined
·
2,437 Posts
Ok, so there seems to be a lot of "oldschool" Keith Code type advice going on here. Brake early, steer quickly all that jazz. Which in and of itself is not entirely bad advice and works for most riders. The problem is that type of thiking came from an era of inferior tire tech. It's a point and shoot type of riding.

So I will briefly outline what I learned at the Yamaha champion school. Why is it the right way to do it? And I quote " because this isn't the seventies and we don't ride seventies bikes with seventies tires anymore and if that aint a good enough reason... because it's the way Rossi does it." So here goes my version of their technique.
Trail brake, trail brake, trail brake. It's all in the braking. And if you use it right you will never and I mean never run wide. You might lowside,but it's unlikely. Think of it as a dynamic action or series of actions instead of the binary way a la K.Code.

First thing to think about is fork compression. There is a range of compression that your bike like to turn. Yamaha guys say the magic number is 100mm. Keep this in mind.
So you are comin in hot and heavy forks compressed, back shifting done body ready to go. DO NOT LET OFF THE BRAKES. Instead use them to manage the compression of the fork. Why? Because if you let off the forks rebound and unsettle and unload your contact patch. So you "trail" them off as you add g force from the action of turning which usualy peaks at the apex of the turn. In shortish terms as the tarmac gives more compressive force to your forks you should let some compressive force from the brakes off in an equal amount until there is no brake left. Never just let off the brakes, allways feather them off. Very slow release, because your forks can still rebound in the middle of a turn at full lean.

Next thing is let the turn, or your line through the turn rather dictate how quickly you steer. Some turns require very swift steering inputs, but most don't.
Imagine yourself standing on one leg. Now imagine somrebody shoving you quickly with 50 pounds of force. Now imagine somebody pressing onto your shoulder gradualy until they each 50 pounds. Which way do you think you would fall over? That is your contact patch. It's like the first time you give your old lady anal. You don't just ram it all home at once. You have to ease into it. Otherwise you are going to get bucked.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,388 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So you are comin in hot and heavy forks compressed, back shifting done body ready to go. DO NOT LET OFF THE BRAKES. Instead use them to manage the compression of the fork. Why? Because if you let off the forks rebound and unsettle and unload your contact patch. So you "trail" them off as you add g force from the action of turning which usualy peaks at the apex of the turn. In shortish terms as the tarmac gives more compressive force to your forks you should let some compressive force from the brakes off in an equal amount until there is no brake left. Never just let off the brakes, allways feather them off. Very slow release, because your forks can still rebound in the middle of a turn at full lean.

Real gem of information here!!! Since I get my braking done BEFORE the turn like most classes teach I usually release the brake lever which unloads the front and THAT'S what's been taking my confidence away. I need to carry more speed so I can stay on the brakes until I reach the turn entry point and then let off gradually.

I guess this explains why you hear a lot of racers say "the faster I went, the better it felt".

Lots of good info in this thread guys. Thanks a lot! Keep it coming.
 

·
Infrequent Visitor
Joined
·
1,996 Posts
...Since I get my braking done BEFORE the turn like most classes teach...
Nate - that works up until one becomes maybe a semi-fast intermediate level rider.... trail braking as mentioned above is the technique you need to start utilizing. Another arrow in a full quiver of options to use depending on the conditions...

Were you even down at NJMP this year? I haven't seen you out there in a loooooong time... Stop chasing tail for a few days and get to the track!:rockon
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,388 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Nate - that works up until one becomes maybe a semi-fast intermediate level rider.... trail braking as mentioned above is the technique you need to start utilizing. Another arrow in a full quiver of options to use depending on the conditions...

Were you even down at NJMP this year? I haven't seen you out there in a loooooong time... Stop chasing tail for a few days and get to the track!:rockon
Lol. Yeah man I need to hit it hard again. I'm hoping the weather is high 60s next Saturday so I can go with Absolute and shake down the ZX-7R I just picked up. :cool: I set up the suspension yesterday so I want to get one in. The only events I did this year were my Private Track Day at BeaveRun and then Monticello with STT on Memorial Day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
594 Posts
come out to a track day with me Nate, ill teach ya. i plan on finally doing a track day since the racing season is done. plan on going next saturday
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,388 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
come out to a track day with me Nate, ill teach ya. i plan on finally doing a track day since the racing season is done. plan on going next saturday
Thanks man. I'm REALLY going to try and make it next Saturday.

gonna come with 'The Love Boat' :woot:



I should buy a camera mount.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
594 Posts

·
TOP GUN Instructor
Joined
·
5,717 Posts
I like alittle bit of everything said about "Technics" here, BUT,.. I especially liked this, what Hank says: about "another ARROW in the quiver" = I love it!:clapper > My words: To learn another Technic, to have in the Ready of ones abillities! eh....? ;)


Nate - that works up until one becomes maybe a semi-fast intermediate level rider.... trail braking as mentioned above is the technique you need to start utilizing. Another arrow in a full quiver of options to use depending on the conditions...

!:rockon
Turbo329
Quote:
Real gem of information here!!! Since I get my braking done BEFORE the turn like most classes teach I usually release the brake lever which unloads the front and THAT'S what's been taking my confidence away. I need to carry more speed so I can stay on the brakes until I reach the turn entry point and then let off gradually. I guess this explains why you hear a lot of racers say "the faster I went said:
Hey Turbo,
I would also say between You talking about how you release the brakes and IMHO this IS atleast just as important as your brake release, and that IS: Where You said how you push yourself back in the seat!;)

So between pulling yourself WAY Forward over the fuel cell... getting your weight more on the front end and Slowly/lightly releasing the brakes... My guess is, You WILL feel Much More confident right from the get go!.......? Let us know how it goes...?


I am alittle surprised No one mentioned: anything about How you Should also "squeezing the fuel cell with your knees" while HARD on the brakes, as this helps >again(IMO)< You too, in that it will aid You in keeping Your MC settled while braking Hard, which in turn, Will Help You with being> Smooth.:twocents
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
594 Posts
just on the 848. supertwins was off the podium 1x with 4th. 2 of the #2's missed first by 2&3 points. was alot of hard work and travel miles and cant wait till next season
 
1 - 20 of 73 Posts
Top