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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So how do you go about choosing the perfect line around a race track or on your favorite twisty road? What’s the best way to figure out where you want to put the bike?
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Re: Choosing a line (Stuman)

The first thing you need to know is that the ideal line around a corner on a race track is not necessarily the same line if that same exact curve is on a public road.

On the road, you should be more concerned with visibility through the corner and leaving yourself room to avoid obstacles than outright speed. This is a critical difference!

In most cases on the road, you want to start your turn toward the outside of the lane - for left hand curves you want to start near the shoulder, and for right-handers, close to the centerline - and you should only start to close in on the apex when you have a clear line of sight to the exit.

But you should also keep enough in reserve that if you do need to tighten up your line (for instance, if there's a Winnebago coming toward you and he's over the double yellow), you can do so immediately and efficiently.

As for racetrack lines, I'm sure we can all give you pointers, but it would do you well to read some of the great books out there, such as Keith Code's <U>Twist of the Wrist</U>, or Nick Ienatsch's <U>Sport Riding Techniques</U>.

These books are very comprehensive, and you can study them over and over.

Otherwise, get yourself out to the track and practice, practice, practice. (And ask lots of questions when you're out there!)
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Choosing a line (AZ Scott)

Scott can 2 or more riders in Pro level have different styles or pretty much all of them use the same style with a few odds here and there?(for example Ben Spies has open his elbows,Tamada take his head off the bike, same for Colin)
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: Choosing a line (Giannis)

On a race track the Fastest line may not be the best line in a race situation. In a race you can't take the big late apex swooping line as the guy behind you will stuff up the inside every time.


If you have enough room on the guy behind you you might get away with it.


The Laps you use in the beginning of the race won't work at the end when the tires are going off and you are dealing with lappers.

The all out fastest line or the "Qualifying" line is pretty much locked in on a race track and everyone will be using it. Where the differences are is on how soon a rider is able to get back on the gas, or how deep he can stay on the brakes.


The difference of a few meters per turn can equate to a couple tenths per lap, and that is everything.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Choosing a line (sp2pilot)

Follow the "fast" guys around for a while, or just ask. That's what I do. Most guys I talk to show me their brake markers, shift points, and their favorite line through the turns.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Choosing a line (sp2pilot)

I disagree...

Even in qualifying, I think you will see pretty wide variations betwenn riders. For example, Troy Corser on the FP1 would take extremely wide, sweeping 250 style lines doing everything possible to maintain corner speed. Garry McCoy on a 999 would spend much less time on the side of the tire, focusing on getting the bike turned and upright again as quick as possible and lengthening the straights.

The all out fastest line or the "Qualifying" line is pretty much locked in on a race track and everyone will be using it. ..
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: Choosing a line (Stuman)

I don't think the concept of "lines" really applies on the street, not in the same way as on a track anyway - as AZ notes, you care more about visibility and leaving yourself margin than ultimate apex speed or when you can get on the gas to drive out. And you're going a helluva lot slower, unless you're nuts, so you have a lot of options.

On the track, I'd say it depends. If you're racing, tighter lines are shorter and leave less passing room, but you'll use up more of the exit and may not be able to drive out as soon. I generally look at the exit and where I want to be, then work backwards to figure out the line. In some linked turns especially, you don't necessarily want to use the whole exit, so that will affect where you enter and turn - and if the exit leads to a significant straight, you care about driving out as hard and early as you can, apex speed be damned. If there's no real exit, you want to drive in as hard as you can since that's the only place you can pick up time.

I'd guess the line that allows you to ride the edge of traction at all times and stay on the track must be the "best" line, but there aren't many folks who can do that so for the rest of us there is some flexibility.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: Choosing a line (999)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 999 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I disagree...

Even in qualifying, I think you will see pretty wide variations betwenn riders. For example, Troy Corser on the FP1 would take extremely wide, sweeping 250 style lines doing everything possible to maintain corner speed. Garry McCoy on a 999 would spend much less time on the side of the tire, focusing on getting the bike turned and upright again as quick as possible and lengthening the straights.

The all out fastest line or the "Qualifying" line is pretty much locked in on a race track and everyone will be using it. .. </TD></TR></TABLE>

This question is open to massive amount of variables as well.

Geometry will show what a line should be in theory, but handling characteristics make a difference, track surface, tire grip, and in the words of Fast Freddie - "power to the ground" factors heavily as Yamaha showed by altering the firing order of the M1 last year.

Often tire management comes into play where lines are concerned on the track, I don't think McCoy gives two hoots about tire life, but his riding style showed something else that no one expected about what a tire will do when spun excessively. Seems it doesn't damage a tire in the manner first thought.


as Scott mentioned - there is a huge diff. between lines on the street- and lines during competition. Dogs- damn dogs
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: Choosing a line (JeffKoch)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JeffKoch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
On the track, I'd say it depends. If you're racing, tighter lines are shorter and leave less passing room, but you'll use up more of the exit and may not be able to drive out as soon. I generally look at the exit and where I want to be, then work backwards to figure out the line. In some linked turns especially, you don't necessarily want to use the whole exit, so that will affect where you enter and turn - and if the exit leads to a significant straight, you care about driving out as hard and early as you can, apex speed be damned. If there's no real exit, you want to drive in as hard as you can since that's the only place you can pick up time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah - what you said...

Especially the "linked" turn thing. I suppose you are refering to a double apex. (say the double 90's at TGPR for example)

I have tried lots of lines in that set of turns and only ocassionally do I feel that I got a good line out. I have a strong suit for left turns, but don't have the same feeling about right handers (i.e. - running TGPR clockwise the D90's are no big deal, but counterclockwise they are a bit more of a puzzle)
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: Choosing a line (Stuman)

Of course, I just now realized that this question was posted by the same guy who started the "quick or smooth" conundrum. Here I was, thinking we were helping out a new guy who wants to improve his riding, when instead it was just a loaded question, intended to start shit again...


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AZ Scott »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As for racetrack lines, I'm sure we can all give you pointers, but it would do you well to read some of the great books out there, such as Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist, or Nick Ienatsch's Sport Riding Techniques.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh yeah, what I meant to say was "Only buy Nick Ienatsch's book!"


Stuman. Sheesh....
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hey Scott, if you don't like the topics I start then don't reply to them, it's no sweat off my back. It's not a loaded question either; it was intended to start a discussion that others might find interesting. I thought your first response was pretty good and others have had some interesting comments as well.

I'm not here to spam this board or any of the other boards I post on. In fact I don't think I've even mentioned any commercial interest on this board have I?

What's your problem with me anyway?
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: (Stuman)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stuman »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> In fact I don't think I've even mentioned any commercial interest on this board have I??</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not yet. And if you promise you won't, people will be less apt to be suspicious of you. Whether you meant to or not, the tone of your two posts gave the impression that a "pitch" was soon to follow. Also, you don't appear to have looked at any other threads here other than the two you started which, under the circumstances, also seems a little suspicious. Finally, both you and Balistic, who first appear here in your original thread, both are affiliated with Keith's school so pardon the fish if they swim around your hook.

Of course, if I'm wrong, please accept my sincere apologies and welcome to the site where I hope we can look forward to your continued contributions for a long time to come.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: (bsess)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bsess »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not yet. And if you promise you won't, people will be less apt to be suspicious of you. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry, I won't do that. I will promise that I am not here to spam this board and will not start posting all sorts of stuff about where I work. However, if anyone has questions related to my job or about where I work I will be happy to answer them. I will not initiate these types of discussions though. Is that cool?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bsess »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Whether you meant to or not, the tone of your two posts gave the impression that a "pitch" was soon to follow. Also, you don't appear to have looked at any other threads here other than the two you started which, under the circumstances, also seems a little suspicious. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The tone was unintentional I assure you and no pitch has followed. I may respond to other threads on this board as I do on others. But you'll probably find I'm not the most active member and don't post on a lot of different threads. I've been a member of LABUSAS for years and it took me for ever to get over 1000 posts. I like to start threads and involve myself in stuff I find interesting, I normally don't post on threads with one word replies or to comment on something just for the sake of getting another post.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bsess »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Finally, both you and Balistic, who first appear here in your original thread, both are affiliated with Keith's school so pardon the fish if they swim around your hook.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, Balistic (Will) and I both work for Keith and we are both pretty active on a large number of internet forums. If you know us you know that we don't just go around pitching the school. Balistic likes to argue (or push people’s buttons as he would say) and I'm a bit more mellow. I think we both might be able to contribute some value to your forum and you might find some of we (especially Will) have to say interesting.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bsess »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Of course, if I'm wrong, please accept my sincere apologies and welcome to the site where I hope we can look forward to your continued contributions for a long time to come.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's all good man and no apologies are necessary. I understand a bit of skepticism when a newbie shows up. I'd just prefer not to be attacked every time I post, I'm not here to argue.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: (Stuman)

I'll vouch for Stuart, he is simply interested in starting and participating in conversation with regards to riding. He's a pretty good WSMC racer and lives and breathes scoots.

DW
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: (BMWHP)

Niki Lauda said all the talk about lines is BS....if you are going fast there is only one line.

On the street I tend to go slow in....and quick out...but not too quick..I hate it when stuff slides around in my pick-up truck on the way to the track with my bike in back.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: (hearing8)

In the classes I have been in, they say drive deeper into the turn make a shorter turn and get into the gas sooner. The sooner you get into the gas the farther down the track you are than the guy behind you.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: (Stuman)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stuman »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's all good man and no apologies are necessary. I understand a bit of skepticism when a newbie shows up. I'd just prefer not to be attacked every time I post, I'm not here to argue.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Stuman, I accept your apology, and I hope you accept mine.

We're a fairly tight little community here, and we seem to get an awful lot of drive-by's. It gets tiresome when people we've never heard of come in and just start a bunch of crap for a few days and then we never hear from them again.

Sorry I lumped you into that group, but it's a learned response I've acquired over the years...
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Re: (AZ Scott)

As for me, AZ is still a newbie. Once he gets over 5000 posts, well, then I'll begin to read his posts and responses.

His actual name is Herb, and works at a Kinkos in King of Prussia, PA. He's 44, lives with his mother, wears hemp clothing, and named his cat "Spock". He is an avid Star Wars dress up guy, and regularly rides around on a scooter with a hockey helmet, and hockey gloves. He eats spaghetti with a spoon, cries while watching American Idol, and has been arrested 27 times for imitating a female massage therapist at the YWCA - quite commendable I might add.

My take on the whole thread/while line to take thing: I follow the fast people, and pass them when I'm able. If the line looks right, cool. Certain people do the whole right line thing, and due to my elite skillz, I pass them on the outside. suckers!
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Re: (996miami (twentyninedollars))

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 996miami (twentyninedollars) »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Certain people do the whole right line thing, and due to my elite skillz, I pass them on the outside. suckers!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Who are you kidding, 996miami? Everyone knows your favorite line:

"Hey baby, come here often?" Followed closely by, "Hey sweetheart, what's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this? Yeah, I know its my place but stilll....."
 
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