[Rocket51]

Supposing Biaggi wins the WSBK title, where do you rank him all time amongst the greats?

 

[sburns2421]

Among All-time roadracers? Tough to say. Being a four-time 250 world champ, winning races in MotoGP, and the WSBK title he makes a strong case for being in the top 10. But no MotoGP titles knocks him down a bit in my book. Other riders I will list below don't have a MotoGP title either. If Max stays a couple more years and wins another WSBK title after 2010, his case gets stronger.

I personally would rate him below Rossi/Hailwood/Agostini in a larger group of "second-tier" greats. I also rate Rainey, Doohan, and Lawson high on my list ahead of the rest of the riders below.

Basically IMO Biaggi is equal to Roberts Sr., Spencer, Schwantz, Fogarty, Bayliss, and Nieto.

 

[DesperateSP2]

He'll be the second rider ever to win a title both in 250cc and WSBK.
I won't mention who he is and I won't mention which bike was he riding to avoid controversy.

 

[DRFLGD]

Bayliss and Biaggi equal?

 

[sburns2421]

Bayliss and Biaggi equal?

In my book, yes. There are several great riders that rank more or less equal in my mind. Fogarty and Bayliss are the two greatest WSBK champs. I have little doubt had Bayliss not switched to MotoGP he would have at least four titles in Supers.

Bayliss and Biaggi both got a late start (IIRC in Faster Biaggi didn't even ride a bike until 18!). We will never know how many titles both riders could have had if they started racing pro at 15. Neither one has a MotoGP title but I agree Biaggi was better in the premier class.

For many reasons Max seemed to be unlucky in 500/990. Ironically probably his most competitive ride was his first, the Marlboro Honda 500. Too bad Doohan was in his prime during this time. When on Yamaha they were struggling with the YZR500 and early M1. He finally got on Repsol Honda, just as HRC found themselves struggling with Rossi's departure.

So I don't put him in the same class as those six I mentioned (Rossi-Hailwood-Agostini-Lawson-Doohan-Rainey), but he definitely ranks with the "best of the rest" that have multiple world championships.

 

[DRFLGD]

I'll buy that!

 

[JBs_SP3]

Personally I can't stand Biaggi and thoroughly enjoyed watching him being hounded and humiliated by Rossi. However I believe Max maybe the only rider ever to qualify on pole and win his first 500 cc GP race and for that feat alone I give him MASSIVE respect.

 

[watskooo]

For many reasons Max seemed to be unlucky in 500/990. Ironically probably his most competitive ride was his first, the Marlboro Honda 500. Too bad Doohan was in his prime during this time. When on Yamaha they were struggling with the YZR500 and early M1. He finally got on Repsol Honda, just as HRC found themselves struggling with Rossi's departure.

I agree with most of your post except for this part. He was probably a better 500 rider than 990 rider, and the M1 was a dog the first year. However, from 2003-2005 he was on the RC211v, arguably the best bike on the grid and ended up finishing behind other Honda riders. For whatever reason, he could not get the results at Honda, but it had nothing to do with them struggling after Rossi's departure.

 

[sburns2421]

IIRC when on the customer Camel Honda he was on Michelin while his teammate Tamada was on Bridgestones. This was during the time when there were tracks BS were good at, and some where Michelin had a decided advantage. But even on the Michelin tracks he was on equipment that was inferior to the Repsol Hondas and did not have tires made specifically for him.

I don't disagree with you, his high-corner speed style at the time might have been incompatable with the very powerful point-and-shoot 990s of 2003-04. He probably was better on a 500 than a 990, although he did win on the M1 when it was still carbureted and didn't even displace a full 990cc.

IMO, tires and their ongoing evolution became a disadvantage for him at Camel Honda. Given he had little input into the tires' construction (certainly less input than Rossi) Max's 250 style meant it became a bigger and bigger handicap as the tires developed in a direction to match the concensus riding style of the 990. "Rossi's" Michelins probably benefitted Hayden and Gibernau, not sure it really helped Biaggi.

I rememeber when he won in his debut 500 race. Interestingly he did the same on a Suzuki in WSBK.

 

[Baasinator]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that a WSBK Championship would put him right up there with Ben Spies...

 

[sqd8r]

Among All-time roadracers? Tough to say. Being a four-time 250 world champ, winning races in MotoGP, and the WSBK title he makes a strong case for being in the top 10. But no MotoGP titles knocks him down a bit in my book. Other riders I will list below don't have a MotoGP title either. If Max stays a couple more years and wins another WSBK title after 2010, his case gets stronger.

I personally would rate him below Rossi/Hailwood/Agostini in a larger group of "second-tier" greats. I also rate Rainey, Doohan, and Lawson high on my list ahead of the rest of the riders below.

Basically IMO Biaggi is equal to Roberts Sr., Spencer, Schwantz, Fogarty, Bayliss, and Nieto.

1. Agontini
2. Rossi
3. Hailwood
4. Joey Dunlop
5. Rainey
6. Doohan
7. Biaggi
8. Edwards
9. Bayliss
10. Fogarty (Foggy should be higher but he could never replicate off the dominate Ducati and Edwards was hampered by the ... ).

 

[Jami6989]

Bayliss and Biaggi equal?

That's insulting to Biaggi for sure! His accomplishments are much more impressive over a longer period of time for sure!:rockon

 

[watskooo]

Pretty sure too much credit is being given for a WSBK title and too little credit for a 250cc title. (Recent 250cc title winners have been more successful in the MotoGP class than WSBK champions have been, although Spies will probably be the exception to that.)

 

[sburns2421]

1. Agontini
2. Rossi
3. Hailwood
4. Joey Dunlop
5. Rainey
6. Doohan
7. Biaggi
8. Edwards
9. Bayliss
10. Fogarty (Foggy should be higher but he could never replicate off the dominate Ducati and Edwards was hampered by the ... ).

No Steady Eddie? He was the dominant rider of the 80's, and was the first rider to switch brands (Yamaha to Honda) and win back-to-back championships. He also developed the Cagiva from an absolute dog into a race winner in the early 90's.

No way Edwards is ahead of Fogarty either. During the reign of King Carl, WSBK was arguably equal in status to 500GP. The bikes were just as fast anyway. Corser (on a Ducati 996) held the two-wheel lap record at Donington for many years. 1996 IIRC was when he was faster than the 500's. Kocinski should rate higher than Edwards as he did win on a certain Honda. Also has a 250 championship.

I personally discounted Yer Man because he didn't have track success, but no doubt he was incredible in real road racing. Fogarty also won at IoM and had the lap record from '92-99, so perhaps that is another one to bolster his status. Also had World Championships in Formula 1 and Endurance.

Isn't this fun?

 

[Baasinator]

Pretty sure too much credit is being given for a WSBK title and too little credit for a 250cc title. (Recent 250cc title winners have been more successful in the MotoGP class than WSBK champions have been, although Spies will probably be the exception to that.)

I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I think too much credit is given for 250cc titles. I think an AMA Superbike title is more impressive, so the idea that a WSBK Championship ranks below a 250cc trophy makes no sense to me.
:twocents

 

[sqd8r]

No Steady Eddie? He was the dominant rider of the 80's, and was the first rider to switch brands (Yamaha to Honda) and win back-to-back championships. He also developed the Cagiva from an absolute dog into a race winner in the early 90's.

No way Edwards is ahead of Fogarty either. During the reign of King Carl, WSBK was arguably equal in status to 500GP. The bikes were just as fast anyway. Corser (on a Ducati 996) held the two-wheel lap record at Donington for many years. 1996 IIRC was when he was faster than the 500's. Kocinski should rate higher than Edwards as he did win on a certain Honda. Also has a 250 championship.

I personally discounted Yer Man because he didn't have track success, but no doubt he was incredible in real road racing. Fogarty also won at IoM and had the lap record from '92-99, so perhaps that is another one to bolster his status. Also had World Championships in Formula 1 and Endurance.

Isn't this fun?

Opps, must have deleted Eddie in the list by accident. No I liked him where you had him esp for his clinical approach.

1. Agontini
2. Rossi
3. Hailwood
4. Lawson
5. Joey Dunlop
6. Rainey
7. Doohan
8. Biaggi
9. Edwards
10. Bayliss
11. Fogarty (Foggy should be higher but he could never replicate off the dominate Ducati and Edwards was hampered by the ... ).

Nah, Yer Man has to be on the list, his reverence in Japan ranked up there with the MGP guys.

 

[stk0308]

No way Edwards is ahead of Fogarty either. During the reign of King Carl, WSBK was arguably equal in status to 500GP. The bikes were just as fast anyway. Corser (on a Ducati 996) held the two-wheel lap record at Donington for many years. 1996 IIRC was when he was faster than the 500's.

I know Steve Hislop went faster around Donington than Rossi's record time one year on the MonsterMob 998 Ducati, I think it was 2002. I don't recall Corser doing it.

I personally discounted Yer Man because he didn't have track success, but no doubt he was incredible in real road racing. Fogarty also won at IoM and had the lap record from '92-99, so perhaps that is another one to bolster his status. Also had World Championships in Formula 1 and Endurance.

If your going to include World F1 championships than that puts Joey back in the hunt. He has 5 to Carl's 3.

 

[Old Baldy]

I know this isn't a popular opinion, but I think too much credit is given for 250cc titles. I think an AMA Superbike title is more impressive, so the idea that a WSBK Championship ranks below a 250cc trophy makes no sense to me.
:twocents

Wow, I wouldn't have put AMA Superbike remotely close to 250GP in terms of rider skill and competitiveness. Ben is clearly an exception to this....he's just one of those nuggets that wins wherever he comes from. He's that good. Would he have been as dominant in 250s as he was recently in AMA Superbike? I doubt it, but then again..he's a little large for that tiny tot bunch.

I'm rambling

 

[Father Guido Sarducci]

Kenny Sr. should definitely be on that list. I would put him in the top three. Just my :twocents

 

[sburns2421]

I know Steve Hislop went faster around Donington than Rossi's record time one year on the MonsterMob 998 Ducati, I think it was 2002. I don't recall Corser doing it.

I'm pretty sure it was '96.