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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Reagan, the guy who let Wall Street sell us mortgage backed securities also cost us massive prison expenditures:


1986: President Reagan sings into law mandatory minimum sentencing for drugs

Prison population explodes.

 

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WITH A CORISPONDINGDROP IN VIOLENT CRIME.....

(CAUSE AND EFFECT!)

Semper Fi!


-Rocky-
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
No, not corresponding.

If this were pin the tail on the donkey, you'd be the donkey.:D

Here's a really good article on the drop in crime. The main reason: A crash in cocaine prices.
How the Plummeting Price of Cocaine Fueled the Nationwide Drop in Violent Crime - Jobs & Economy - The Atlantic Cities

Hmm, maybe legalizing drugs IS the smart thing to do.
And no one can say that putting small time druggies into prison with hard core asswipes isn't going to make the small timers worse. Prisons are training grounds for criminality. They ruin people who are borderline. They all get released sooner or later. Prisons are costly and counter-productive in many cases. But also necessary in many others. Overall, I think we do a piss poor good job of managing our disfunctional people. We warehouse them and make them worse. The U.S. prison system is one of America's greatest failings. Still, nothing approaching China, for instance. Not that that's saying much.

Whatever the cause, one thing's for sure. We all like.
Except for Oakland.
Oakland sees homicide total reach triple digits, violent crime spike in 2011 after 1 year drop - chicagotribune.com
 

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Meatball's Dad
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Legalizing drugs isnt the answer either. I don't like seeing such expense taken to house these animals but the left has made sure that they all have cable tv, conjugal visits, weights and any other home comfort a lawyer is willing to sue over.

Out immigration pattern also is to blame. We're taking in the dregs of the world's societies and just hoping that they'll fit in despite having no job skills to offer. Result, many become instant criminals.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Legalizing drugs isnt the answer either. I don't like seeing such expense taken to house these animals but the left has made sure that they all have cable tv, conjugal visits, weights and any other home comfort a lawyer is willing to sue over.

Out immigration pattern also is to blame. We're taking in the dregs of the world's societies and just hoping that they'll fit in despite having no job skills to offer. Result, many become instant criminals.
First of all, you have no proof who is responsible for inmates having TV's , etc. Don't they have TV's in red states? But whatever, I'll let you have your way on that one because it doesn't even matter. How much does a TV cost? What is the cost of dealing with inmates who are NOT glued to a TV? This is another issue which you have not analysed but have jumped to an unsubstantiated conclusion. Cell phones are something I'm much more concerned about. Cell phones are a link to continued criminal activity. I'll never understand why they were ever allowed anywhere in prison. But anyway, on to what matters...

You have not quantified any rise in crime and linked it to rise in immigration. I'll do it for you to some degree. Here's a long report on the subject - too long for me to want to read. But since you're in law enforcement why don't you study it and report back;).
The Immigration Debate: Studies on the Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration

" In this chapter we include estimates that from 4 to 7 percent of the more than 1.5 million persons held in American jails and prisons are noncitizens. At an average annual cost of more than $30,000 per inmate, the financial source of public and policy concern is obvious."

That comes to a cost of around $2 billion annually. It's obvious, but only a few days of Iraq occupation, by comparison. I'd rather not pay it but at least they're off the streets and it's money well spent. The bigger issue is, why are they here and what can we do about it? Again, that's another thread.

Believe me, we're pretty much on the same page about dregs. But you make one very bad mistake. Most illegal immigrants, while I consider them criminals simply because they snuck in, are actually fine people who just want to work. They have families and need to put food on the table. That is the undeniable reality. Most of these people are peasant level, very religious, family values, all that stuff. The "dregs" are a small minority who get a lot of press. And no one can deny either that illegals in general do fill jobs at low wages and fuel our economy. They also take away some jobs that should be for our people but it depends on the business and pay level, etc. That's another thread too. There are simple truths to this argument that you totally gloss over. And I say this as a person who is dead set against illegal immigration. It's one of my pet peeves. On my liberal music forum I had a Arizona avatar for almost a year. Got tired of it after the Giffords shooting and Arpaio's lack of enforcement on sex crimes though. Arizona is one crazy place - I know, my dad lives there and I visit often. But they sure as hell get screwed on illegals. BTW, did you noticed how ICE and Obama have cracked down on illegals? You probably have but I'm sure you'd spin it some crazy way. I know you.

Also important to note that you live in the city (I believe) and I live in the country. Big difference there on who becomes a dreg, I suppose.
 

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Meatball's Dad
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First of all, you have no proof who is responsible for inmates having TV's , etc. Don't they have TV's in red states? But whatever, I'll let you have your way on that one because it doesn't even matter. How much does a TV cost? What is the cost of dealing with inmates who are NOT glued to a TV? This is another issue which you have not analysed but have jumped to an unsubstantiated conclusion. Cell phones are something I'm much more concerned about. Cell phones are a link to continued criminal activity. I'll never understand why they were ever allowed anywhere in prison. But anyway, on to what matters...

You have not quantified any rise in crime and linked it to rise in immigration. I'll do it for you to some degree. Here's a long report on the subject - too long for me to want to read. But since you're in law enforcement why don't you study it and report back;).
The Immigration Debate: Studies on the Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration

" In this chapter we include estimates that from 4 to 7 percent of the more than 1.5 million persons held in American jails and prisons are noncitizens. At an average annual cost of more than $30,000 per inmate, the financial source of public and policy concern is obvious."

That comes to a cost of around $2 billion annually. It's obvious, but only a few days of Iraq occupation, by comparison. I'd rather not pay it but at least they're off the streets and it's money well spent. The bigger issue is, why are they here and what can we do about it? Again, that's another thread.

Believe me, we're pretty much on the same page about dregs. But you make one very bad mistake. Most illegal immigrants, while I consider them criminals simply because they snuck in, are actually fine people who just want to work. They have families and need to put food on the table. That is the undeniable reality. Most of these people are peasant level, very religious, family values, all that stuff. The "dregs" are a small minority who get a lot of press. And no one can deny either that illegals in general do fill jobs at low wages and fuel our economy. They also take away some jobs that should be for our people but it depends on the business and pay level, etc. That's another thread too. There are simple truths to this argument that you totally gloss over. And I say this as a person who is dead set against illegal immigration. It's one of my pet peeves. On my liberal music forum I had a Arizona avatar for almost a year. Got tired of it after the Giffords shooting and Arpaio's lack of enforcement on sex crimes though. Arizona is one crazy place - I know, my dad lives there and I visit often. But they sure as hell get screwed on illegals. BTW, did you noticed how ICE and Obama have cracked down on illegals? You probably have but I'm sure you'd spin it some crazy way. I know you.

Also important to note that you live in the city (I believe) and I live in the country. Big difference there on who becomes a dreg, I suppose.
Obama's "crackdown" on illegal immigration is a joke. Its a catch and release program. Until the US takes the lack of a secure border seriously, no enforcement will result in any effective changes. They'll be back a week after deportation....again and again.
Document them, background checks and let them apply for legal work here. Let them pay taxes and we're good. This disastrous mess we have now simply allows more bad than good. Criminals, gang violence, human smuggling rings, ATF allowing guns going TO Mexico and the enormous amount of narcotics coming in is a threat to everyone here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Obama's "crackdown" on illegal immigration is a joke. Its a catch and release program. Until the US takes the lack of a secure border seriously, no enforcement will result in any effective changes. They'll be back a week after deportation....again and again.
Document them, background checks and let them apply for legal work here. Let them pay taxes and we're good. This disastrous mess we have now simply allows more bad than good. Criminals, gang violence, human smuggling rings, ATF allowing guns going TO Mexico and the enormous amount of narcotics coming in is a threat to everyone here.
Boy, you've got that wrong. Immigration is down across the board - dramaticaly. Deportations are up - dramaticaly. Border enforcement is increased (but not enough).

Some of the rest is right but most of them do pay taxes. It goes into the Fed coffers and the illegals don't get it back. That's a large part of why Washington likes illegals - they're easy money.

I'm starting:rolleyes: to wonder if you ever look anything up before posting or whether you're just repeating what your buds talk about in the locker room.

Most 2010 deportees were criminals ? USATODAY.com

"Deportations have been on the rise for the past decade, and the 396,906 illegal immigrants deported in fiscal year 2011 is the highest number yet, according to the figures.
Under the Obama administration, Homeland Security issued new priorities to focus deportations on convicted criminals, people who pose threats to national security and repeated border-crossers. Last year, 55% of those deported were convicted criminals, the highest percentage in nearly a decade."

"The number of illegal immigrants deported has risen from 116,782 in 2000. The percentage of criminal deportations was at 31% when Obama assumed office."
 

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Boy, you've got that wrong. Immigration is down across the board - dramaticaly. Deportations are up - dramaticaly. Border enforcement is increased (but not enough).

Some of the rest is right but most of them do pay taxes. It goes into the Fed coffers and the illegals don't get it back. That's a large part of why Washington likes illegals - they're easy money.

I'm starting:rolleyes: to wonder if you ever look anything up before posting or whether you're just repeating what your buds talk about in the locker room.

Most 2010 deportees were criminals ? USATODAY.com

"Deportations have been on the rise for the past decade, and the 396,906 illegal immigrants deported in fiscal year 2011 is the highest number yet, according to the figures.
Under the Obama administration, Homeland Security issued new priorities to focus deportations on convicted criminals, people who pose threats to national security and repeated border-crossers. Last year, 55% of those deported were convicted criminals, the highest percentage in nearly a decade."

"The number of illegal immigrants deported has risen from 116,782 in 2000. The percentage of criminal deportations was at 31% when Obama assumed office."
Illegal immigration is down because it's not the deal it used to be (financially speaking) for the illegals. Obama is like a blind squirel. It will find a nut every once in a while.
By wrecking our economy he's helped that prob indirectly.:rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Illegal immigration is down because it's not the deal it used to be (financially speaking) for the illegals. Obama is like a blind squirel. It will find a nut every once in a while.
By wrecking our economy he's helped that prob indirectly.:rolleyes:
There are several reasons for the drop in immigration:
One is stiffer enforcement.
Another is a weakened economy.
Another is changing attitudes of Americans.
Another is increased danger due to crime along the migration.


How, oh smart one, did Obama "wreck the economy"?
Good luck answering that one.:rolleyes:


Here's an interesting poll which shows American's blame Obama for the economy and blame Bush even more.
Fact is, neither of them caused the mortgage mess and that is what caused this recession.
American's are idiots. How many of them have EVER taken an economics class or read a book on the subject?
Very few.
Americans, on the whole, don't know shit about economics and don't know shit about the mortgage bubble.
You, clearly, are one of them.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/21/poll-majority-of-americans-blame-obama-for-economy/

(This is like shooting ducks in a pond.)
 

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Meatball's Dad
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Crossing the border without permission is by itself illegal. That's why it's called Illegal Immigration. Culling through the mass of illegal immigrants and deporting them without having a secure border is a catch and release program.
The US needs to secure the Southern borders and withhold foreign aid unless they help control the border and cartel violence.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Crossing the border without permission is by itself illegal. That's why it's called Illegal Immigration. The US needs to secure the Southern borders and withhold foreign aid unless they help control the border and cartel violence.
Well, duh
 

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Meatball's Dad
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Well, duh
Then why hasn't Obummer done either of these things? Instead he had Calderon speak before Congress and criticize the US and attack Arizona's anti-illegal immigration law. Obams has Eric Holder taking AZ, LA, AL, UT and other States to court challenging their efforts to curb illegal immigration. That is not a President who believes in a solid/secure border.

Calderon has no control of his internal military/police forces and next to zero control of his own border areas near the US.
Although coddled by Obama, he's incompetent and dangerous to our citizens who live within a short distance of the border.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Then why hasn't Obummer done either of these things? Instead he had Calderon speak before Congress and criticize the US and attack Arizona's anti-illegal immigration law. Obams has Eric Holder taking AZ, LA, AL, UT and other States to court challenging their efforts to curb illegal immigration. That is not a President who believes in a solid/secure border.

Calderon has no control of his internal military/police forces and next to zero control of his own border areas near the US.
Although coddled by Obama, he's incompetent and dangerous to our citizens who live within a short distance of the border.
Border enforcement is way up (are you guys ever right?):
PolitiFact | Obama says border patrol has doubled the number of agents since 2004

"The report confirmed that personnel and other resources to stop illegal crossings of the U.S.-Mexico border have increased dramatically in recent years. In 2004, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security was created, reorganizing several federal agencies under a single roof. That year, the agency had 10,500 agents to patrol land borders. That number now stands at nearly 21,000.
In other words, manpower has roughly doubled since 2004, as Obama said in his speech in El Paso. Again, that trend began under President Bush, whom Obama credited, but it continued under Obama. We rate Obama's statement True."

Combine that with record deportations and you've got a Pres who takes action, even if it isn't comprehensive and complete.

I didn't look up Holder, etc., but I'd assume it's because immigration enforcement is a federal responsibility, not a state one. I'd guess that sueing those states is Holder's responsibility, just like it is to crack down on marijuana dispensaries even though Obama said he wouldn't. But I don't know - just a guess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Still waiting for nero to tell me how Obama "wrecked the economy":rolleyes:. Gonna be a long wait.
 

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There are several reasons for the drop in immigration:
One is stiffer enforcement.
Another is a weakened economy.
Another is changing attitudes of Americans.
Another is increased danger due to crime along the migration.


How, oh smart one, did Obama "wreck the economy"?
Good luck answering that one.:rolleyes:


Here's an interesting poll which shows American's blame Obama for the economy and blame Bush even more.
Fact is, neither of them caused the mortgage mess and that is what caused this recession.
American's are idiots. How many of them have EVER taken an economics class or read a book on the subject?
Very few.
Americans, on the whole, don't know shit about economics and don't know shit about the mortgage bubble.
You, clearly, are one of them.
Poll: Majority of Americans blame Obama for economy – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

(This is like shooting ducks in a pond.)
You list 4 reasons and miss the main reason, real smart there turdly. Increasing prosperity in Mexico, at least by there own standards is what has resulted in decrease in illegal immigration. The other reasons are secondary.

Obama did not wreck the economy. He simply has failed to do much to fix what he got and has created an environment between small and big business alike and the government that stifles rapid improvement. He has failed horribly on the housing crisis.

If it's the government's job to police the border and they have increased efforts to a degree that has not adequately addressed the problem than why do they need to spend taxpayer dollars to sue states who want to protect themselves more. It could not possibly be the Hispanic vote in the next election, no, say it isn't that. We are all not that naive. Obama has screwed himself out of the Jewish vote but is not yet ready to flush the Hispanic voters down the drain.
 

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Meatball's Dad
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Still waiting for nero to tell me how Obama "wrecked the economy":rolleyes:. Gonna be a long wait.

Lets See.
Quantitative Easing Round 1, Round 2 and they're suggesting Round 3 last week.

16.4 trillion in Debt.
When Obama was inaugurated on Jan. 20, 2009, according to the Treasury Department, the total national debt stood at $10,626,877,048,913.08.

Unemployment is still a mess despite promises to actually Fix the ecomomy.

Borrowing money from China to Lend to the IMF/Europe and then we'll eventually just forgive the loans to IMF/Europe taking on the weight of the loans ourselves to their benefit.
 

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Meatball's Dad
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Border enforcement is way up (are you guys ever right?):
PolitiFact | Obama says border patrol has doubled the number of agents since 2004

"The report confirmed that personnel and other resources to stop illegal crossings of the U.S.-Mexico border have increased dramatically in recent years. In 2004, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security was created, reorganizing several federal agencies under a single roof. That year, the agency had 10,500 agents to patrol land borders. That number now stands at nearly 21,000.
In other words, manpower has roughly doubled since 2004, as Obama said in his speech in El Paso. Again, that trend began under President Bush, whom Obama credited, but it continued under Obama. We rate Obama's statement True."

Combine that with record deportations and you've got a Pres who takes action, even if it isn't comprehensive and complete.

I didn't look up Holder, etc., but I'd assume it's because immigration enforcement is a federal responsibility, not a state one. I'd guess that sueing those states is Holder's responsibility, just like it is to crack down on marijuana dispensaries even though Obama said he wouldn't. But I don't know - just a guess.
A catch and release policy is still a failure. It was a failure under Bush and his predecessors and its no better under Omama. Neither party wants to be labelled as racist for actually closing off the border which is what's needed.
 

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