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Discussion Starter #1
So AMA has two classes right? 450 and unlimited?

How does that compare to the world level competition? Are the 450 class machines the top class in other series?
 
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Discussion Starter #2
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (K-T-M)

Rumor has it they are also adding a 250 class due to popular demand.


I'd say that 450 is "the class", if that's what you mean... It's not like in europe where the tracks are big enough for the big bikes to dominate.
 
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Discussion Starter #3
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (K-T-M)

This year AMA has added a 250 class, in addition to the others.

AMA is also more strict with the 'ol "production" rule. In Europe the bikes are very trick like the Aprillia and some other one-off bikes.
I think the AMA has something against ingenuity!
Uh Oh, I feel a rant comming on..... Does anybody remember the twins classes of the late-80's to Early 90's when bike builders would make fantastic one-off bikes.
The Two Brothers Hawk, The Britten, the commonwealth Honda, Lucifer's Hammer HD.
All I see in the AMA pits now is 600's and 1000's nearly stock race bikes
. How did that inovation disappear
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (sm250)

A couple points on the production rule 1) It has made all the production bikes much more reliable, faster and better handling 2) It has made bikes too expensive.

I think the 250 and 450 class should be production based, and then let the Unlimited class be a real "unlimited" class. It just doesn't make sense to have this so called "Supermoto Unlimited" and not have it as the premier class. Wait I know why, KTM wanted to guarantee themselves a championships, so they put some money up front and told the AMA the wanted a class for themselves. Then again if it would have been a real class, with the best rideres I would have never made a main event
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (chriscap)

Recent articles indicate that FIM Supermoto is going to do the same thing as AMA... 450cc bikes as their premiere class.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (banda)

No kidding... I wonder if the recent interest in SM desplayed by some of "The Big Four" had anything to do with that...
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (Jacka$$)

Sounds like the 450 SM class is going to be the equivalent to the 600 supersport class.
The perfect way for a manufacturer to promote a popular product.
The 250 Class will be very interesting, It looks like if you're not making 40HP with your 250 you might as well stay home. I can tell you that a 40-something HP 250 is a bit of a time-bomb if not maintained properly. Ought to be fun to watch.
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (sm250)

That's why the 250 class needs to be a production class. Basically only allow wheels, brakes and exhaust to be modified. I have no idea how you'd police head work though. I guess I'm mixed about the 450 being the premier class, it is where the majority of the bikes are sold.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (chriscap)

the way you police head mods is fairly easy. the manufactures submit oem stuff to the ama. the ama compares it to the torn down unit. at this stage of the game it would be fairly easy. as opposed to how f'ed up it is when factory teams get involved in supersport racing. that's what gets messed up as they're not running just any off the shelf parts. the 250 class should be limited mods. let it be a riders race as opposed to a tuner/rider/wallet race. let that go down in the other classes. i bet we haven't seen anything yet as it doesn't seem that much money or prestige is involved. just wait when things blow up. isn't dunlop coming out with supermoto tires?
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (Nick Novice)

Production -v- modified is a great depate. Expecially when factories are involved

Just curious, Is there any rumors floating around about how involved ($$) Honda is with the 450 Supermoto Class?
I think engine development is part of this racing game, now admitedly I enjoy this sort of thing, so keep that in mind.

Coming from a roadracing backround, I know that it is VERY expensive to build a competitive "Supersport" legal 600.... Yes, Build.
A friend of mine just purchad a suposed ss-legal YZF built by 4&6 in Chicago. It dynoed at something like 120hp with good fuel. Hmmmm... don't sound right?

How competitive would a local rider on a stock-ish CRF450 be against a rider of equal tallent on a bike built by a back-door Honda suplied team given Supersport rule configuration.
The cost involved in making more HP on a Supermoto bike is not too bad. Head-work, a good HC piston, and some ignition changes can be done for about a grand here in the midwest.
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (sm250)

Head work alone (at least quality) will cost more than a grand. And if not let me know so I can call them.

At Springfield, the bike mods aren't going to help much. You have one chance on the back straight to use HP, but if someone out drives you on the turn HP isn't going to matter. Something else, the riders weight is just as important than HP. Im' a fat ass so I get to see this first hand.
 
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Discussion Starter #12
"suposed ss-legal YZF built by 4&6 in Chicago"

remember when todd harrington rode for 4 & 6? he beat duhamel. i doubt that bike was legal. but no more illegal than any of the other front runners. next year he got a muzzy ride and didn't do squat. just like many other second string muzzy riders.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (chriscap)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chriscap »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Head work alone (at least quality) will cost more than a grand. And if not let me know so I can call them.</TD></TR></TABLE>
OK

Both these guys are awsome.
Bill has vast experience with many different kinds of bikes, the web sit does not do justice to his abilities, he built some very nice one-off Ducati heads that used (Gasp!) Valve springs. He also does work on Ed Key's SV that has one a few national championships at the CCS ROC in Daytona.
http://www.motorcycleperf.com/index.htm

Ask anyone in the Mineapolis area, Doug is 'da man!' He is currently focusing on FI stuff but may still port a head or two. He did the motor on my Road Racing Ducati (And it was reliable
)
http://www.visi.com/~moperfserv/

Todd Harrington, now there's a blast from the past!

I'm a fat ass too, with limited tallent on top of that. That's why I make as much HP as possible




Modified by sm250 at 8:25 PM 4/1/2005
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (sm250)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sm250 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Ask anyone in the Mineapolis area, Doug is 'da man!' He is currently focusing on FI stuff but may still port a head or two. He did the motor on my Road Racing Ducati (And it was reliable
)
http://www.visi.com/~moperfserv/

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I talked to Doug a number of years back up at BIR. I wish I had a tenth of his knowledge regarding tuning motorcycles.
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (Nick Novice)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nick Novice »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">aproximately 7 lbs equals 1 hp. i'm 145 lbs
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wait, does that mean I have 14 hp more or less than you?
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (sm250)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sm250 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK
Both these guys are awsome.</TD></TR></TABLE>

And they know how to build a Supermoto engine (just asking, I have no idea). I also don't want a grenade, but something that just need regular mainteance (oil changes, valve adjustments).

It sounds like these guys know how to build road racers, and they may be awesome at it, but Supermoto is not road racing, and the motors need different power. Again I have no idea, I just race the damn things. I'm just thinking of having my 525 done, and know I can get it done for $1500, but under a grand for head work, HC piston and minor ignition mods sound really cheap.
 
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Discussion Starter #18
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (chriscap)

I appreciate your skepticism!


I just did some tricks to my CRF250 with Motorcycle performance in Madison.
The JE 13.5:1 Piston kit was around $150
The original quote for the Head was about 250 including flow bench work and a fancy multi-angle valve job. I had to pay more as I needed 4 new valves (Damn CRF250's
, 40 bucks each)
I've been looking at the Vortex unit which lists for about $400
That leaves some $ left over for a couple hours of dyno time
I am also assuming assembly can be done at home.

A supermoto engine has many of the same characteristics of a good road racing engine, nice midrange with a respectable hit at the top of the rpm range. But more importantly A sharp engine tuner (Not your average mechanic) can develop what you are asking for. A good tuner will not build a grenade because it's just not good for business.
Also, a good tuner doesn't typically advertise because they are very busy.

In my opinion, a grenade is the result of the following:
> Extreme duty cams that beat the valvetrain to death
> An engine that makes peak power ONLY in the highest part of the rpm range
> Big bore kits with heavy pistons which over-stress the connecting rod
> Sloppy assembly and maintenance
really good grenades use all of these techniques at the same time!
 
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Discussion Starter #19
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (sm250)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sm250 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sloppy assembly and maintenance
really good grenades use all of these techniques at the same time!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

There goes my chances of having a good motor!
 
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Discussion Starter #20
Re: AMA Supermoto Categories (chriscap)

The series opener at Costa Mesa will also have an outlaw class. It won't count as AMA points, kind of a side show I guess. No rules, run what ya brung. We need more promoters like Troy Lee.
 
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