Snowden a hero, or traitor ? - Speedzilla Motorcycle Message Forums
View Poll Results: Snowden a hero or traitor ?
Hero 7 58.33%
Traitor 4 33.33%
Don't know 1 8.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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Snowden a hero, or traitor ?

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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2013, 11:00 AM
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I'm a prat clicked the wrong button. I meant traitor, I don't have a problem with the monitoring it's necessary evil I'm afraid. Anyway I don't have anything to hide.


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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cheekybloke View Post
I'm a prat clicked the wrong button. I meant traitor, I don't have a problem with the monitoring it's necessary evil I'm afraid. Anyway I don't have anything to hide.
I sure as **** hope you are kidding.

you haveing nothing to hide is no reason for being spied upon. Having nothing to hide is not a reason to relinquish your born rights... it's ideas like that that are ****ing up this world.
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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2013, 05:32 PM
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Hero. all the way.

a govermtne that

1) forcefully under threat takes your money
2) secretly steals your information
3) tells you the opposite of what they are doing when asked
4) doesn't give you answers to questions you ask

...is not your friend. If this was an individual you wouldnt associate with them. worst of all this is your government.

"classified" should not exist. If I can't judge my government on the most sensitive of their actions how can I decide to keep them representing me?
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2013, 05:43 PM
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I sure as **** hope you are kidding.

you haveing nothing to hide is no reason for being spied upon. Having nothing to hide is not a reason to relinquish your born rights... it's ideas like that that are ****ing up this world.
Get a grip we aren't literally being spied on are we, they are after terrorists and serious criminals.
They don't give a crap what you are up to really. If I really thought we were being spied on enough to infringe my civil liberties then I may have a problem, but I can go about my life as freely as I wish, although I'd love to plant half a ton of C-4 under the houses of Parliament. (wait for that one to flag up ). There has to be a trade off though as all you need is email and a cypher.


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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2013, 06:30 PM
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Get a grip we aren't literally being spied on are we, they are after terrorists and serious criminals.
They don't give a crap what you are up to really. If I really thought we were being spied on enough to infringe my civil liberties then I may have a problem, but I can go about my life as freely as I wish, although I'd love to plant half a ton of C-4 under the houses of Parliament. (wait for that one to flag up ). There has to be a trade off though as all you need is email and a cypher.
you are teetering on fascism. I guess hitler didn't teach the brits a big enough lesson? people are too quick to forget i guess...

to have the type of power, access to information that they have is a dire risk if it gets in the wrong hands, or is misused. Worse yet, have you not seen the evolution and further bastardization by each successive administration of such power grabs? hence the need for restraint.

The end does not justify the means.

The laws that are upheld in and during the pursiut of "criminals" and "Terrorists" are/and should be the same laws that I hold my government to in extending to me and my family and neighbors. Everything that happens is a test of those laws and that should not be forgotten or wavering.
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-12-2013, 08:06 PM
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you are teetering on fascism. I guess hitler didn't teach the brits a big enough lesson? people are too quick to forget i guess...

to have the type of power, access to information that they have is a dire risk if it gets in the wrong hands, or is misused. Worse yet, have you not seen the evolution and further bastardization by each successive administration of such power grabs? hence the need for restraint.

The end does not justify the means.

The laws that are upheld in and during the pursiut of "criminals" and "Terrorists" are/and should be the same laws that I hold my government to in extending to me and my family and neighbors. Everything that happens is a test of those laws and that should not be forgotten or wavering.
I'd much rather a little snooping than another 7/7 or 9/11. I think you are being a bit OTT suggesting we are teetering on Fascism. Do I trust my Govt? Do I f**k are the intelligence services Lilly White? again same answer, but do I feel that whats going on is necessary? damed right I do and it comes as no surprise it's happening.
If this "news" didn't come to light you'd have happily got on with your life and eventually gone to the grave without any effect on your liberty and the people trying to fight terrorism and organised crime would have continued to keep you safe.

Shit we've just had an off duty soldier heading back to Barracks butchered in public for little more than wearing a Help the Heros sweatshirt. Questions immediately sprung up as to why the necessary services weren't watching these people. I'm sure if the same happened in the US there would be the same outcry, how do you think they gather some of this intelligence? How do you suggest they keep an eye on potential threats.
On a final note I understand your argument and you do have a good point to make but I feel it's a necessary evil at the moment.


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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cheekybloke View Post
I'd much rather a little snooping than another 7/7 or 9/11. I think you are being a bit OTT suggesting we are teetering on Fascism. Do I trust my Govt? Do I f**k are the intelligence services Lilly White? again same answer, but do I feel that whats going on is necessary? damed right I do and it comes as no surprise it's happening.
If this "news" didn't come to light you'd have happily got on with your life and eventually gone to the grave without any effect on your liberty and the people trying to fight terrorism and organised crime would have continued to keep you safe.

Shit we've just had an off duty soldier heading back to Barracks butchered in public for little more than wearing a Help the Heros sweatshirt. Questions immediately sprung up as to why the necessary services weren't watching these people. I'm sure if the same happened in the US there would be the same outcry, how do you think they gather some of this intelligence? How do you suggest they keep an eye on potential threats.
On a final note I understand your argument and you do have a good point to make but I feel it's a necessary evil at the moment.
There are some sayings that politicians live by and one of them is "never let a serious crisis go to waste" which history has shown lead to power grabs that have never resulted in a "safer" society. Safety is a relative term. People that act in response in such manner are untrustworthy imo.

What happened with the beheading is disgusting but the types that are capable of these actions are very rarely going to be caught before they can carry out their nonsense. The reason is because you can't surveil thoughts and ideas. They next step is going to be "splinter groups" or acting individually with minimal organization. This is where the "surveillance" will break down because communication will be minimal at best or even unnecessary. What freedoms will be given up then? Will it be too much at that point?

Just because I might not have known about something doesn't validate it carrying on. Again a very dangerous way to think of things.
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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 07:02 AM
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To show some balance here is a story that will support your argument.
BBC News - Six admit planning to bomb English Defence League rally
Although if I'm honest the loss of some EDL members(right wing nazi scum were once BNP and NF) would not have lost me any sleep.


EDL English defence League, BNP British National Party, NF National Front.
All Racist Nazi scum recruited from our equivalent of Trailer trash and do little more than spread hatred.
The equivalent to muslim extremists. My solution get the whole lot from both sides and lock them in a sports stadium for a few days.
This is really a discussion with no right or wrong and I really do see your side of the argument but I aslo understand the need for monitoring.


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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 12:02 PM Thread Starter
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To me, this is a defining issue that pairs people from both left and right for strange
reasons.

If you accept giving up your 4th amendment rights for "security", then you could also justify the loss of 1st an 2nd amendment rights too. For the good of the state.

We got ourselves into this quicksand by allowing political correctness, which got started in our institutions of higher learning, to become the law of the land, as idealism.

Like mmgw, it has become a religion.

You cannot offend anyone, so we must not profile members of a certain religion who commit 99.9% of all terrorism worldwide right now. We "feel" better about ourselves if we pretend it isn't so. We search for the rare exception (Tim McVeigh) to fortify that PC belief.

Instead, we allow the state to impinge our born right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, and they greedily as many details and data about us as they can hold with their current capacities.

I heard one national msm reporter last night try to justify these actions by likening them to Google's scanning gmail accounts. The obviuos difference is that when you sign up for a gmail acct. you click "accept" willfully.

They will build new data centers to hold more of this data and we will not protest.
The heads of these agencies lie under oath (Clapper in March '13 to Sen. Wyden) to your elected officials and then admit it freely to the MSM (Andrea Mitchell, NBC this past Sunday) !

So far, the poll results are interesting.

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nero View Post
To me, this is a defining issue that pairs people from both left and right for strange
reasons.

If you accept giving up your 4th amendment rights for "security", then you could also justify the loss of 1st an 2nd amendment rights too. For the good of the state.

We got ourselves into this quicksand by allowing political correctness, which got started in our institutions of higher learning, to become the law of the land, as idealism.

Like mmgw, it has become a religion.

You cannot offend anyone, so we must not profile members of a certain religion who commit 99.9% of all terrorism worldwide right now. We "feel" better about ourselves if we pretend it isn't so. We search for the rare exception (Tim McVeigh) to fortify that PC belief.

Instead, we allow the state to impinge our born right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, and they greedily as many details and data about us as they can hold with their current capacities.

I heard one national msm reporter last night try to justify these actions by likening them to Google's scanning gmail accounts. The obviuos difference is that when you sign up for a gmail acct. you click "accept" willfully.

They will build new data centers to hold more of this data and we will not protest.
The heads of these agencies lie under oath (Clapper in March '13 to Sen. Wyden) to your elected officials and then admit it freely to the MSM (Andrea Mitchell, NBC this past Sunday) !

So far, the poll results are interesting.
Good post I really do see both sides of the discussion but I also believe that at the moment we are at war and our doorstep could be the battlefield. I've lived under the threat of IRA attacks in my youth and the restrictions were far tighter then, at least now there is a chance that the monitoring could help prevent tragedies.


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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 11:48 PM
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Cheeky,

I get it, and I would have been in that camp a short while ago. My opinions and personal ideals have changed though. I can accept your opinion and people of your opinion, which is how hodemocracy evolved but none of what has happened has been democratic.

unfortunately there is no

1) representation of the public interest through elected officials
2) plebicite to vote on matters that may not be suitable for representation through elected oficials because political preference might not parallel choices such as these
3) "moratorium" (if you will) against further changes/advancement of the policies that are guiding collection of information/funding of infrastructure/architecture of the systems to collect such information

ie the best way to conduct business would have been for the govt asked through an election for or against x,y,z, for a period of however many years before further changes to collection practices and at which time they could have crunched the numbers to see if in fact there would have been any significant change in cracking down on activity....

imo publicly announcing would have been a stronger position against terrorism. Not only would it have increased the perceived difficulty of communication but it would have kept the govt in positive light instead of them being even less trusted then the enemy they are trying to fight...

My real concern though at the end of the day is that once such infrastructure is in place that it WILL be used for other purposes... and it will mark my word. USA is in a financial shit hole as is much of the world but the US is leading the race down the shitter imo. It has become apparent that cracking down on people finances, businesses etc in an attempt to collect as much tax $ is somehting that the IRS is very much interested in doing. Global communication surveillance will be the next frontier, and then cyber terrorism... How much money will a nation inflate into pay for such measures? Honest money is just about the only thing that can prevent such nonsense.

Sometimes the best offense is a good defense. this starts as the borders. The easiest thing to do is turn away someone that you are uneasy about. NO country has an obligation to let anyone in that they dont want. This is fact.

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-14-2013, 10:37 AM
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My real concern though at the end of the day is that once such infrastructure is in place that it WILL be used for other purposes... and it will mark my word. USA is in a financial shit hole as is much of the world but the US is leading the race down the shitter imo. It has become apparent that cracking down on people finances, businesses etc in an attempt to collect as much tax $ is somehting that the IRS is very much interested in doing. Global communication surveillance will be the next frontier, and then cyber terrorism... How much money will a nation inflate into pay for such measures? Honest money is just about the only thing that can prevent such nonsense.
that is good point and a real possibility. I'd be keeping most of what I do cash in hand if that were the case
Quote:
Sometimes the best offense is a good defense. this starts as the borders. The easiest thing to do is turn away someone that you are uneasy about. NO country has an obligation to let anyone in that they dont want. This is fact.
Can't argue there, although some of the threats are now born and bred on our shores, as we have allowed the likes of Abu Qatada asylum here and have been repaid with hate speeches in public, and young British Muslims brainwashed.


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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-14-2013, 08:46 PM
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Traitor

This is realy two separate questions.

He is a Traitor for releasing the information.

However what the NSA is doing is wrong.

I am going home to fold up my aluminum foil hat for the night.
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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-15-2013, 12:56 AM
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This is realy two separate questions.

He is a Traitor for releasing the information.

However what the NSA is doing is wrong.

I am going home to fold up my aluminum foil hat for the night.
makes him the biggest hero for democracy. are you a traitor against a regime or against the ideals and principles of democracy?
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2013, 03:36 PM
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Flees to China to divulge classified data.
Definitely not a hero.
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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2013, 03:40 PM
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Flees to China to divulge classified data.
Definitely not a hero.
Just hope his actions don't endanger anyones life.


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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2013, 05:46 PM
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I don't trust this person and question his motives.

Seriously, China is where you go if you are concerned about government intrusion on privacy and individual rights?
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-17-2013, 09:25 PM
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I don't trust this person and question his motives.

Seriously, China is where you go if you are concerned about government intrusion on privacy and individual rights?

well.... China technically but Hong Kong actually. The two really aren't one and the same. If you take a close look at the way that HK operates it is almost a sovereign state. Free speech and free market are like a fulminating cancer there. There are very little similarities that can be made btw HK and China.

HK has a special place in the world because there is very little concern there for anything other then $$$ hence free speech is not infringed on and many can seek asylum there because again govt cares not about politics but rather business. They are very unlikely to turn over individuals imo.

If you search the web you will see a LOT of media coverage of events that the USA propaganda machine doesn't show such as public outcry/demonstrations to keep Snowden form being sent packing. Most of the "free world" sees nothing wrong with what Snowden has done. He has stepped up and put his ass on the line to try and uphold what the USA was once about! He has everything to lose and nothing to gain by doing so. It is probable that many other nations have similar programs in place, he has done nothing to provided info to any "enemy"

watch
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-18-2013, 03:28 AM
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Flees to China to divulge classified data.
Definitely not a hero.
Flees to HK

.... so that he is not made an example by the propaganda machine, of the country that he is trying to uphold.
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