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post #161 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-18-2007, 03:32 AM
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Cutter's long lost home video......SF is waiting on ya cutter! LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN5tHuYTPOo

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post #163 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-18-2007, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanST4


These days it's easy to convince people of almost anything. Pick a subject.

Well, Dan, you were easy to convince that Mankind has little or no impact on the sharp peak in production of Green-house gases over the last, er, 150 years, nor any quantifiable impact on "Global Climate Change". You are of course correct that efforts to cut CO2 emmisions will only harm the economy, and not heal the environment.
The melting of the polar cap is a natural occurrence.
There is no Global Warming caused by Humans, Iraq has WMD, the Martians shot Kennedy, the Earth is flat, and gay people can be cured. (oh, and the Grand Canyon was created by Noah's flood...)
Yep, you are a scientific kinda guy, Dan.
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post #164 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-18-2007, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XFBO
Cutter's long lost home video......SF is waiting on ya cutter! LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN5tHuYTPOo
You are a constructive, bright, witty guy, always keen to bring pertinent, valuable and accurate insight to a debate.

It's clear, XFBO, that you mass-debate a lot.
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post #165 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-18-2007, 12:36 PM
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It's easy to assess each statement if you take off the tinfoil hat and look at the facts without listening to the schril screams of people like Al Gore.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
...Mankind has little or no impact on the sharp peak in production of Green-house gases over the last, er, 150 years...
It's important to separate fact from theory. The emission of certain gases has increase with the increase in population over time. It's also important to remember that "greenhouse gases" is a theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
... nor any quantifiable impact on "Global Climate Change"...
It's a fact that the Earth's atmosphere gets hotter with an increase in Solar Intensity - that's a fact. It's a theory that Earth's atmosphere gets hotter with an increase in CO2 content of that atmosphere - that's a theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
... You are of course correct that efforts to cut CO2 emmisions will only harm the economy, and not heal the environment...
That's a fact. The only way to reduce the emission of CO2 is to reduce growth. If you want to dramatically reduce emission of CO2 you must dramatically reduce growth. And thankfully that ain't gonna happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
... The melting of the polar cap is a natural occurrence...
Fact. More importantly, total polar ice mass is increasing! The Global Warming fanatics point to a recent three year period and then extrapolate forward from that point. It just so happens that that three year period they conveniently picked is a particularly warm period. Look back over a longer period and it's a perfectly normal cycle of heating and cooling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
... There is no Global Warming caused by Humans...
Global Warming Caused By Humans is a theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
... Iraq has WMD...
The United Nations verified the existence of WMD in Iraq in the 1990's. The United Nations verified the fact that Iraq used WMD at least 5 times. The United Nations concluded that Iraq had not provided sufficient proof that those WMD had been destroyed. It is perfectly rational to assume Iraq still had WMD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
... Yep, you are a scientific kinda guy, Dan.
Thank you, I prefer science over political agenda and pseudo-science.

Pseudoscience is any body of knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that claims to be scientific but does not follow the scientific method. See Al Gore for examples of modern-day pseudo-science.
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post #166 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-18-2007, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
=DanST4...
It's important to separate fact from theory. The emission of certain gases has increase with the increase in population over time. It's also important to remember that "greenhouse gases" is a theory.
True, its only a theory, like that of relativity, or theories of extinction of species. A theory that the Pyramids cause global warming would get short shrift, but a theory that CO2, water-vapour, methane etc, present in the atmosphere have an effect on Global warming tends to have more creedence, wouldn't you agree ?
http://en.wikipedia.org
Quote:
It's a fact that the Earth's atmosphere gets hotter with an increase in Solar Intensity - that's a fact. It's a theory that Earth's atmosphere gets hotter with an increase in CO2 content of that atmosphere - that's a theory.
I think that the vast majority of experts and climatalogues would agree that Solar warming is important, but that the Greenhouse effect is also linked with the presence of gases in the atmosphere. Fact and Theory rub shoulders here, according to most experts, although a few state that solar radiation has negligable effects on planetary warming.
Quote:
That's a fact. The only way to reduce the emission of CO2 is to reduce growth. If you want to dramatically reduce emission of CO2 you must dramatically reduce growth. And thankfully that ain't gonna happen.
This is looking at a problem through a reversed telescope, or a very blinkered bias.
Quote:
Fact. More importantly, total polar ice mass is increasing! The Global Warming fanatics point to a recent three year period and then extrapolate forward from that point. It just so happens that that three year period they conveniently picked is a particularly warm period. Look back over a longer period and it's a perfectly normal cycle of heating and cooling.
Ha ha. Sure
http://cires.colorado.edu/news
http://www.iht.com
http://www.epa.gov
http://www.nrdc.org
http://news.bbc.co.uk

Just for starters.
Quote:
Global Warming Caused By Humans is a theory.
I'll buy it. It makes sense to me from my own personal observations, and from the information I have available that we as a race are responsable for modifying the planetary weather. The doubt that exists, and needs a free and unrestricted debate is "How much effect will it cause, and how can we reduce it's effects so that life will continue to exist." Perhaps the people who try to nullify the effects of GW don't care because Baby Jesus is going to rapture them up, but I, personally, give a shit. (Opinion.)
Quote:
The United Nations verified the existence of WMD in Iraq in the 1990's. The United Nations verified the fact that Iraq used WMD at least 5 times. The United Nations concluded that Iraq had not provided sufficient proof that those WMD had been destroyed. It is perfectly rational to assume Iraq still had WMD.
Its strange, but this goes against the reports from the UN ? I'll wait for proof that Iraq still had them after 1993, but I think I'll wait a long time.
Quote:
Thank you, I prefer science over political agenda and pseudo-science.
I'm not so sure here about that.
Quote:
Pseudoscience is any body of knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that claims to be scientific but does not follow the scientific method. See Al Gore for examples of modern-day pseudo-science.
See Dan for another. Or is that Dogmascience you preach ?
Do you work for these people, that you defend so fiercely the undefendable ?
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post #167 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-18-2007, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
...and gay people can be cured...
http://www.1800-sports.com/images/april-scott.jpg
They should stare at this picture of this local small-town girl for a few minutes. If this doesn't change their preference, nothing will. WARNING: I am specifically referring to men, it will only reinforce lesbianism.




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post #168 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-18-2007, 03:58 PM
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I'll bet that the sea-level rose after that !!
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post #169 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-18-2007, 07:50 PM
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Link to article

Global warming is a religion, not science. That's why acolytes in the media attack global-warming critics not with scientific arguments, but for their apostasy. Then they laud global-warming believers not for reducing greenhouse gases, but simply for believing global warming is a coming catastrophe caused by man. The important thing is to have faith in those who warn: The end is near.

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post #170 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-18-2007, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanST4
Link to article

Global warming is a religion, not science. That's why acolytes in the media attack global-warming critics not with scientific arguments, but for their apostasy. Then they laud global-warming believers not for reducing greenhouse gases, but simply for believing global warming is a coming catastrophe caused by man. The important thing is to have faith in those who warn: The end is near.

Does anyone have any links for a face-to-face debate with Al Gore and a global warming opponent? Has such a debate ever happenned?




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post #171 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-19-2007, 01:06 AM
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Does anyone care about science anymore?

“A general characteristic of Mr. Gore's approach is to assiduously ignore the fact that the earth and its climate are dynamic; they are always changing even without any external forcing.

To treat all change as something to fear is bad enough; to do so in order to exploit that fear is much worse.”

- Richard Lindzen, the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at MIT, op-ed in the June , 00 Wall Street Journal.


Nonscientists generally do not want to bother with understanding the science. Claims of consensus relieve policy types, environmental advocates and politicians of any need to do so. Such claims also serve to intimidate the public and even scientists -- especially those outside the area of climate dynamics. Secondly, given that the question of human attribution largely cannot be resolved, its use in promoting visions of disaster constitutes nothing so much as a bait-and-switch scam. That is an inauspicious beginning to what Mr. Gore claims is not a political issue but a "moral" crusade.

Lastly, there is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition. An earlier attempt at this was accompanied by tragedy. Perhaps Marx was right. This time around we may have farce -- if we're lucky.




What follows is a very brief summary of the science that the former Vice President promotes in either a wrong or misleading way:

• He promoted the now debunked “hockey stick” temperature chart in an attempt to prove man’s overwhelming impact on the climate

•He attempted to minimize the significance of Medieval Warm period and the Little Ice Age

•He insisted on a link between increased hurricane activity and global warming that most sciences believe does not exist.

•He asserted that today’s Arctic is experiencing unprecedented warmth while ignoring that temperatures in the 1930’s were as warm or warmer

•He claimed the Antarctic was warming and losing ice but failed to note, that is only true of a small region and the vast bulk has been cooling and gaining ice.

•He hyped unfounded fears that Greenland’s ice is in danger of disappearing

•He erroneously claimed that ice cap on Mt. Kilimanjaro is disappearing due to global warming, even while the region cools and researchers blame the ice loss on local land-use practices

•He made assertions of massive future sea level rise that is way out side of any supposed scientific “consensus” and is not supported in even the most alarmist literature.

•He incorrectly implied that a Peruvian glacier’s retreat is due to global warming, while ignoring the fact that the region has been cooling since the 1930s and other glaciers in South America are advancing

•He blamed global warming for water loss in Africa’s Lake Chad, despite NASA scientists concluding that local population and grazing factors are the more likely culprits

•He inaccurately claimed polar bears are drowning in significant numbers due to melting ice when in fact they are thriving

•He completely failed to inform viewers that the 48 scientists who accused President Bush of distorting science were part of a political advocacy group set up to support Democrat Presidential candidate John Kerry in 2004


60 Scientists Debunk Global Warming Fears

Earlier this year, a group of prominent scientists came forward to question the so-called “consensus” that the Earth faces a “climate emergency.” On April 6, 2006, 60 scientists wrote a letter to the Canadian Prime Minister asserting that the science is deteriorating from underneath global warming alarmists.

“Observational evidence does not support today’s computer climate models, so there is little reason to trust model predictions of the future…Significant [scientific] advances have been made since the [Kyoto] protocol was created, many of which are taking us away from a concern about increasing greenhouse gases. If, back in the mid-1990s, we knew what we know today about climate, Kyoto would almost certainly not exist, because we would have concluded it was not necessary,” the 60 scientists wrote.

See Link

“It was only 30 years ago that many of today’s global-warming alarmists were telling us that the world was in the midst of a global-cooling catastrophe. But the science continued to evolve, and still does, even though so many choose to ignore it when it does not fit with predetermined political agendas,” the 60 scientists concluded.

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post #172 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-19-2007, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Just finished reading "unstoppable global warming, every 1500 years".

A fantastic book that will open your eyes to the "real" factors behind global warming being pushed as man-made. Huge volumes of colaborating evidence over long epochs are explored in depth. Multiple proxies considered as well.
After reading this book you will look forward to the effects of the REAL (moderate) global warming going on, not Al Gore's version. It all makes sense now to me what is going on.
Thank you Mr. Avery...

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post #173 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-19-2007, 09:32 PM
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post #174 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-19-2007, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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There's a reason why the IPCC / UN is pushing all of this...

Read the book !

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post #175 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-19-2007, 11:52 PM
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The United Nations wants one World Government - what better way than to have control over every major industry in every country on the planet?

The UN should be disbanded. Bush dreams of a new organization, a modern UN which is less corrupt, leaner, and meaner.

:twocents
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post #176 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-21-2007, 01:36 PM
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Bush dreams of a new organisation, alright, a New World Order, inspired by Leo Strauss, a Brave New World, a gleaming new Neo-Con Empire, a Thousand year Amerikan Century, with a numb and dumbed down people sitting vacantly in front of their telescreens, filling their drugged and slave-like existence at the altars of mass-produced, polluting consumerism, all benignly watched over by "Dear Leader" as he exhorts the masses to be "Patriotic", to "Support the troops", to "consume", to wage the good fight against "evil terrorists who hate your freedoms..."

Oceania, anyone ?

"Less corruption" from a neo-con led government is an oxymoron, Dan.

Oh, the Avery book. Thats not the one by a right-wing guy, payed for by, er, big industry, is it ? He isn't implicated in the RAND Corporation and the right-wing "Think" tank the Hudson Group, is he, because that COULD mean his info and book (hope its printed on recycled paper...) could just be another ploy to get the masses to ignore all the evidence and slumber back off to sleep again, while his corporate masters continue raping and plundering the Planet. After all, they'll be dead and gone (after living lives of glutonny and avarice..) by the time that the real effects of Global Climate Change provoked and enhanced by Human activity becomes so obvious and deadly that even the most stalwart "scientific" and dogmatically-blinded muppet of the "No it isn't !" brigade are forced to admit "Yes it is", as they watch their planet perish around them...

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php

You guys truly ARE the band playing as the boat sinks, aren't you ?
I thought people like you were only a myth, made by concerned parents to frighten children into becoming educated and informed, so they don't slip into becoming led-by-the-nose sheep, coaxed into the slaughter-house with a happy little bleet.
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post #177 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-21-2007, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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le kiwi,
Did you actually read the Avery book ?
Or are you now doing book reviews w/o reading them ?
To discount the data in Avery's book because you dislike the partial source of funding is hypocrisy on your part. Is the IPCC-UN-Kofi Annan any purer as a source of funding for "your side" ?
READ the book and keep an open mind. There are THOUSANDS of very reputable scientists quoted in the book !
Let's see what you believe after reading it. I'll even send you my copy, if you wish.

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post #178 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-21-2007, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi

...I thought people like you were only a myth...
We're here, we exist, and we're not afraid to disagree with the status quo. It's OK to question that which is repeated again and again until it's thought to be fact.
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post #179 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-21-2007, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nero
le kiwi,
Did you actually read the Avery book ?
Or are you now doing book reviews w/o reading them ?
To discount the data in Avery's book because you dislike the partial source of funding is hypocrisy on your part. Is the IPCC-UN-Kofi Annan any purer as a source of funding for "your side" ?
READ the book and keep an open mind. There are THOUSANDS of very reputable scientists quoted in the book !
Let's see what you believe after reading it. I'll even send you my copy, if you wish.
I haven't read the whole book, only excerpts. There is some interesting stuff, but also a lot of speculation, spin and liberal use of "facts".
His background and all his previous articles and books (chemical spray and pesticides are REALLY good for you...., natural or organically grown food is REALLY bad, burning coal is cool, nuclear energy is great, alternative fuels are "nonsense", the Plastic industry is wonderful) makes me a little bit suspicious of his credibility, plus the fact that he's in the same right-wing industry pocket as Steve Milloy, and has the peerage and support of such sleezy villains as PNACist Norman Podhoretz and other neo-con 5th columnists, all make me a bit cynical as to his aims. Can you read between the lines, or do you accept what he says as gospel, Nero ?
This may help you.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/2006/11/avery-and-singer-unstoppable-hot-air/
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post #180 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-21-2007, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanST4
We're here, we exist, and we're not afraid to disagree with the status quo. It's OK to question that which is repeated again and again until it's thought to be fact.
But Dan, don't you ever wonder why you are repeating the same tired old Party-line coming from the same industry-sponsored sources that quite often fly in the face of common-sense AND all available scientific fact, or even scientific "Educated Guessing" ?
Who pulls YOUR strings ? What have you got to lose by admitting that Human industrial activity has aided the climate change we are currently experiencing, and that by approaching the problem with open, critical minds, and acting on as much clear and unbiased information as possible, we can maybe reverse or decrease the effect WE are having on the Planet in the near future ?

One thing I have learnt from reading up on Global Warming is that 1) it is a real and serious issue that affects us all, and 2) that finding factual and clear information is hard, in between the waffle and bull from the "left" and the "right". And that's a shame, because it leaves the road wide open for charlattans and doomsayers to sell pseudoscience books off the back of it !
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