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post #201 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 06:54 PM
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The CO2 goes up quite a bit doesn't it, from 1860 on.
Must be the Sun.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov
This is interesting, OK, it doesn't come from a Mexican Biologist out in the desert, but its an interesting source none-the-less.
Browse around a bit, it's a very good site. There is a lot of very clear information and comparisons, and some neat charts, too.
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post #202 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
The CO2 goes up quite a bit doesn't it, from 1860 on. Must be the Sun.
You've got it! It wasn't all that difficult was it? Yes - CO2 goes up, way up! But it was wise of you to see past that and look at the entire picture.

The temperature of the Earth has been going up and down from the very beginning. For much of the past 2,000 years CO2 in the atmosphere has been very low, with stable levels since 700 AD. Yet the temperature varies wildly the entire time. What else could be happening? Solar Intensity!

I'm glad you finally see that with the data we have it's just not rational to draw the conclusion that rising CO2 levels result in rising Earth temperatures.

The graph, and science make it so easy to understand.



I wonder how many people in the enlightened countries of the world know anything more about global warming than - "it's caused by humans and the USA is doing the lions share of the terrible damage just like all the other bad things the USA is doing"?


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post #203 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 08:32 PM
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There is an interesting study out about the general ignorance of the American people about Global Climate Change you may want to google it up, XFBO.
13% of Americans have no idea what it is, and a higher percentage than any other nation on the planet did not clearly understand the basic facts. Why wasn't I surprised when I read that ?
I know, I know, I know.............cuz generally American haters/bashers dont ever think logically?

Dude havent you got it yet? Ppl that normally dont insult ppl have insulted you over time, you're a freaking buffoon bro. It's gotten to the point that Id say more ppl than not dont even waste their times reading your posts.......not completely anyway......cuz like the typical liberal BS in here, you read it once and its pretty much the same throughout afterwards.

You cannot SERIOUSLY think anyone really gives you much thought or credit in the BS you spew daily......do you?

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post #204 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 09:12 PM
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Your needle is stuck in the groove, XFBO.
Why not contribute something useful instead of your idiocy, which isn't very constructive.
You hated "skool", didn't you.
LOL, RLMFAO, XOB, BOF, NOB, WOOF !!


Geez, Dan. Global climate change is NOT just CO2, that's a major factor for sure, but it's a WHOLE lot more than that. Have you bothered to read any of the stuff I've linked to, you know, stuff from peer-reviewed and professional climate scientists, who are in the vast majority convinced beyond reasonable doubt that the Earth is close to being the hottest it has been since thousands, if not millions of years, and that regardless of Solar activity, which, if you had looked at the NASA data and findings would have seen that it was a contributor to overall Global Warming but was NOT the main factor.
You complain about me using sources that may be "gasp" left-wing, or even "swoon !" pro-Democrat, but you are using a small clique of "scientists" who are all linked to the Hudson people, who are all linked to, er, big business, and who may have agendas that don't fit in with ensuring a future for the Planet ? Just a thought. Do you work for these people ?

It's not Anti-American to believe that the planet is going through a crisis, just as it's not anti-American to try to understand why some people seem so blinkered to verifiable truths or scientific fact. We all breath the same air, and we are all here together, why not work to at least identify that there is a problem, and work out how to SOLVE it ? Whats so hard about that ?
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post #205 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 09:21 PM
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The non believers of global warming are the same ones that bought into the whole idea of WMD's in Iraq and were adamant about it. When non were found made up bullshit about liberation etc. Here they are buying into the idea that it's a ploy against USA, or some other shit, and are neglecting a wide array of measurable data that can be used to extrapolate to certain conclusions...:twocents


Global warming is not a anti-US ploy. It is simple observations of our actions over an extended period of time.
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post #206 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 20_RC51_00
... and are neglecting a wide array of measurable data that can be used to extrapolate to certain conclusions...:twocents
Unfortunately the computer modeling and extrapolation is nothing more than a guess - it's not yet science. There are too many assumptions being made, assumptions which are debatable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 20_RC51_00
...Global warming is not a anti-US ploy. It is simple observations of our actions over an extended period of time.
Our actions? That's opinion at this point, nothing more. Maybe you're comfortable "just going with it".

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post #207 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 10:07 PM
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I'm not sure what knowledge you have about anything environmenal or that to do with physics and chemistry but I for one have quite a bit of background in both. For you to sit back and be an armchair QB is pretty lame. It takes a bit more of an enlightened individual (and not by much) to forsee potential hazards and relate cause and effect. Obviously it isn't good enough for you to have enough evidence but rather have to look the end result straight in the face. But by then it is always too late, hindsight is a bitch....





Quote:
Originally Posted by DanST4
Unfortunately the computer modeling and extrapolation is nothing more than a guess - it's not yet science. There are too many assumptions being made, assumptions which are debatable.




Our actions? That's opinion at this point, nothing more. Maybe you're comfortable "just going with it".
computer modelling is not even necessary...take a closed system and switch the equilibrium of gasses and maintain the flux of light/heat into the system and voila! you have just created (simplistically) a very effecient green house capable of maintaining elevated temperatures for longer durations.. by simply understanding you can infer what will happen...


oh..by the way..."our actions" meant us as a global community not just a single nation.
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post #208 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 10:09 PM
 
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The planets ecology is indestructable, because baby jesus made it that way, and you don't want to make baby Jesus cry now do you?
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post #209 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 10:37 PM
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Woooohooooooo what do we have here, more liberal trash talking?!?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20_RC51_00
I'm not sure what knowledge you have about anything environmenal or that to do with physics and chemistry but I for one have quite a bit of background in both. For you to sit back and be an armchair QB is pretty lame.

You MEAN like this ignorant @ss reply? >
"The non believers of global warming are the same ones that bought into the whole idea of WMD's in Iraq and were adamant about it. When non were found made up bullshit about liberation etc."

Yea the US needed to make BS up about invading Iraq, it's this Admin's fault that a bunch of ignorant fools chose to focus on ONE reason to invade rather than all the reasons collectively. Also yippeeeee we have another liberal who knew BEFORE the invasion that Saddam had no WMD's!!! Wowweeeeeee, such a smart pyschic! Clinton AND Bush could of used you in their team!


It takes a bit more of an enlightened individual (and not by much) to forsee potential hazards and relate cause and effect.

Like ignoring the ideology of todays islamics?
Who mind you, are a LOT more of an immediate threat than your Global Warming. Kinda pointless in worrying about something that 'may NOT' ever happen or hundreds of yrs away from happening when we continue to get attacked by extreme muslims, isnt it?
BTW- who HAVE grown in rapid numbers in the past decade or two.
Yep, talk about looking at reality right in the face.

But by then it is always too late, hindsight is a bitch....
It sure as hell is, it's also 20/20 isnt it?

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post #210 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cutter
The planets ecology is indestructable, because baby jesus made it that way, and you don't want to make baby Jesus cry now do you?
Wow...... so Kewl , I see blasphemy is the flavor of the month, eh cutter?
You rock dude! So controversial you are! Such a head turner! A true patriot! Freedom fighter if you will! Bitchin!
.
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.... Some ppl make me .

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post #211 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-30-2007, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 20_RC51_00
It takes a bit more of an enlightened individual (and not by much) to forsee potential hazards and relate cause and effect. Obviously it isn't good enough for you to have enough evidence but rather have to look the end result straight in the face.
Sounds as if you've jumped on the Global Warming bus. No need to debate any longer - those pesky potential hazards are enough evidence for you. And when the UN makes their official report official, well, that should close this case for you.

It's Global Warming Science now not theory.

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post #212 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-31-2007, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter
The planets ecology is indestructable, because baby jesus made it that way, and you don't want to make baby Jesus cry now do you?
When it is obvious to everyone how little you add to the discussion, the only way you can continue to get attention is to offend.




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post #213 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-31-2007, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 20_RC51_00
computer modelling is not even necessary...take a closed system and switch the equilibrium of gasses and maintain the flux of light/heat into the system and voila! you have just created (simplistically) a very effecient green house capable of maintaining elevated temperatures for longer durations.. by simply understanding you can infer what will happen...
But the flux is not constant, and the absorption rate of that flux would change over time as well as the temperature was elevated or lowered in the short term. Just one simple example is that as the oceans warm, algae grow more rapidly and absorb more carbon from the atmosphere, which in turn alters the gas mix to have less greenhouse effect, which in turn contributes to cooler temperatures and less algae and less-carbon absorbing ability. In large part the earth is self-regulating for small perturbations. The debate should be whether mankind's influence is a minute or microscopic perturbation.




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post #214 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-31-2007, 02:19 AM
 
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When it is obvious to everyone how little you add to the discussion, the only way you can continue to get attention is to offend.
Well excuse me Mr. Liberal tree hugging America hater for expressing my religious beliefs in Jesus.

Maybe if you weren't such a hatefull person, you could see Jesus is taking care of everything.
I'll pray for you.
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post #215 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-31-2007, 03:54 AM
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Okay then lets forget about the what if's and look at the potential results "if " it is for real. WOuld it not be worth it to treat it as "real and imminent" if the outcomes could be so catastrophic whether or not you or the scientists are right?? (I'd side with the house and go with the scientists that devote their lives understanding and to things of this nature..)


Wouldn't you rather be right (in your opinion) and have globabl warming turn out to be grossly overstated but , OR... would you rather be wrong only to realize that you were brutally wrong and now you are fawked? Kind of a better safe then sorry situation ..no?


What would be worse, change the way we do things and potentially ward off global warming (and even if it turns out to be overstated reduce your dependence on foreign oil, polute less and all the positives that could come of that etc) or have the world go to shit because of your knee jerk lazyness couldn't react in time to what might have been right in front of your face???
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post #216 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-31-2007, 04:53 AM
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So what's your solution to the big "IF".......20?

How much should WE get taxed?
Should we ban all cars that get under 20mpg?
What about factories, should we shut them down?
Should we attack other countries who arent abiding by the "what if" global warming rules?
Stop raising cattle worlwide or cut the rate down?

What 20 what should be the short and long term solution be to a potential "IF" problem???

Also what have YOU done to cut down your use on ozone depleting agents?
Or are you like the rest of the forum tree huggers who want EVERY other person to pay for it or do something?

Look forward to your reply.

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post #217 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-31-2007, 08:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by XFBO
So what's your solution to the big "IF".......20?

How much should WE get taxed?
Should we ban all cars that get under 20mpg?
What about factories, should we shut them down?
Should we attack other countries who arent abiding by the "what if" global warming rules?
Stop raising cattle worlwide or cut the rate down?

What 20 what should be the short and long term solution be to a potential "IF" problem???

Also what have YOU done to cut down your use on ozone depleting agents?
Or are you like the rest of the forum tree huggers who want EVERY other person to pay for it or do something?

Look forward to your reply.
-Electric cars
-Solar Panels
-Nuclear energy.
-Soy hybrid burgers at large fast food chains.

I know for a fact that you will say something along the lines of trashing all gas cars, but I only suggest a introduction of electric cars as a option, and believe it or not, it wont cost anything more to taxes, what is costing us lots of money is this war for oil.

And I find it hilarious that the same people that say it will cost too much in taxes to reduce emissions, are the first to support the most taxing war ever in the entire history of mankind.

I think our dependency on foreign oil will cost us 1000 fold more then any zero emission standard could ever even come close to.

But I am really curious were you are getting this reduction of emissions is going to bankrupt America information, I know you wont be able to quote anyone not paid by big oil, but amuse me with this almighty information you are basing your entire foundation of reality on, must be really good for you not to look at any other alternatives.

I mean the way you guys absolutely hate even the thought of us even thinking about reducing our dependency on oil, so you must know something pretty damn important, did god come down and tell you the devil will take over the earth if we don't burn as much oil as possible?

And does the idea of some country not playing along really a justification for not doing it ourselves?
"Well jimmy next door didn't do his homework dad, so why should I have to do mine?"
Is that the logic I am seeing here?
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post #218 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-31-2007, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 20_RC51_00
...Would it not be worth it to treat it as "real and imminent" if the outcomes could be so catastrophic whether or not you or the scientists are right??
So, do something, anything? Just in case it's real?

No.

Why?

If you look at the projections of how much of a reduction in CO2 emissions humans can realistically achieve vs. how little of a temperature reduction we would realize - and how much devistation to the world's economies would result... it makes no rational sense to assume global warming is caused by humans and that humans should take all necessary steps to significantly reduce CO2 emissions.

Simple as that.

What this really is about is pushing a liberal ideology onto the world: reduce air pollution as fast as you can, reduce water pollution with little concern for the effect on the economy, reduce big oil's influence immediately, shrink cars, shrink houses, stifle capitalism, crush all polluting industry, destroy the SUV (unless you need one like politicians and celebrities), stop this infernal greed, slow the growth of everything... that's why so many people are so damn excited about global warming.

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post #219 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-31-2007, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by cutter
-Electric cars
-Solar Panels
-Nuclear energy.
-Soy hybrid burgers at large fast food chains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter
And I find it hilarious that the same people that say it will cost too much in taxes to reduce emissions, are the first to support the most taxing war ever in the entire history of mankind.


But I am really curious were you are getting this reduction of emissions is going to bankrupt America information,


I mean the way you guys absolutely hate even the thought of us even thinking about reducing our dependency on oil


And does the idea of some country not playing along really a justification for not doing it ourselves?
And there you have it - Cutter is the perfect example of the liberal ideology I'm talking about.

Electric cars, solar panels, soy burgers... and this is going to stop global warming? Give me a break! They want us all to become silly, bicycle-riding, sandal-wearing, soy burger-eating liberals. It's a social agenda, not science.

He has no idea of the economic impact of reducing growth in the economy, expecially on a world scale.

He throws-in the emotional reduce our dependency on foreign oil argument to support carbon reduction.

And then to top it off he says too bad if China or India don't take the steps which will crush economic growth, we should. Who cares what the result is as long as the United States at least starts to reduce our carbon footprint! Do something, anything!

His line of thinking is not at all uncommon. Thankfully many significant world leaders understand economics.

And the comment on the war being the most taxing in the entire history of mankind? What a statement!

The War in Iraq is the least expensive major war in history, both in terms of dollars vs GDP and in lives. Last year 851 soldiers lost their life in Iraq. Over 75,000 were killed in automobile accidents in the USA that same year. The War is costing under 2% of GDP vs. WWII which cost over 50% of GDP, and Vietnam which cost close to 25% of GDP.

The War in Iraq, when compared to other wars is actually going great, fantastic successes, record low losses. I know that statement has to hurt but it's reality.
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post #220 of 3778 (permalink) Old 01-31-2007, 12:07 PM
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Would you please give some links for these "facts", Dan.
You may want to look at the wonderful first-aid which is offered to the wounded soldiers, that has never been available at this level in any war previously, but which means that the serious injuries and life-time wounded are out-stripping all other wars combined, especially in the field of brain trauma and advanced concussion due to proximity to IED explosions, and the relative exposure of the neck and head protruding from the body armor. Another triumph for the Bush administration in its "War Of Terra" is to give doctors and specialists a chance to study new and previously unheard of PTS and serious brain injuries. Yep, the successes of "Operation Iraqi Liberty" just don't stop rolling off the line. (The doctors would have prefered mice, but who can argue with Dick...)
Just a hint. Despite what your "Dear Leader" said, the other wars are over, and have been accounted for, this one is still going strong, and will continue to do so as long as you have neo-cons leading you by the balls.
I believe they have tabled a motion to change the introduction to the Lords prayer to "Let us Pay" for all the staunch war-supporter congregations in the USA ? Bless ya'll...

As for the cost of the war, what ARE you drinking with your coffee ?
Please post some sources.
Here is just the tip of a massive iceberg as it melts into a foaming sea of dollars..
http://www.spiegel.de/international/
http://www.economicprincipals.com

And to ensure you don't die of thirst in the desert of information, a fountain of Knowledge;
http://en.wikipedia.org

I think your fears of being returned to a grass-hut dwelling savage are totally unfounded, Dan, and I think the benefits of starting to understand better our environment AND OUR EFFECT on it can only be a positive step foward, if not for us, then for the generations to come.:twocents

Last edited by Le Kiwi; 01-31-2007 at 12:24 PM. Reason: mod to link
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