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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-04-2015, 04:43 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sqd8r View Post
Fair pts, my only concern would be if this is going to be a bike to keep for several yrs I'd want the most up-to-date model.
I can respect that. However, my perspective has changed. I've been to NYST here in New York about 4 times this year and I met the local fast guys. One of them runs within 4 seconds of the outright lap record on a 2006 CBR1000RR with your typical mods.

Having the most "up to date" model has more to do with our inner vanity and less to do with what's practical or actually needed at our skill level to go fast. If you're honest with yourself and can simply admit that you want to have the latest and greatest then that's all good too.

All I'm saying is that the current GSXR1000 will very likely be fast around all of our US tracks for the next decade. Regardless of what comes out.


I was doing some research on horsepower and my findings are quite interesting. (Sport Rider is the source)

Let's take my bike as the 10 year old example.

2005 MV F4 1000S - It makes [email protected],500rpm and is 489 lbs Wet

Now look at some of the current offerings of the other Manufacturers in recent memory:



Aprilia
2013 RSV4 Factory = [email protected],500rpm / 465 lbs Wet

BMW
2014 S1000RR = [email protected],200 / 461 lbs Wet

Ducati
2013 1199 Panigale R = [email protected],600rpm / 421 lbs Wet
*I couldn't find reliable 1299 Panigale data.

Honda
2014 CBR1000RR SP = [email protected],400rpm / 450 lbs wet
2014 CBR1000RR =
[email protected],700rpm / 447 lbs wet

Kawasaki
2012 ZX10R (US) = [email protected],600rpm / 442 lbs wet

MV Agusta
2013 F4RR ($25k version) = 167.2[email protected],500rpm / 469 lbs Wet

Suzuki
2012 GSX-R1000 = [email protected],600 / 447lbs wet

Yamaha
2012 YZF-R1 = [email protected],800 / 475hp Wet
* Various reports show that the new 2015 R1 (US version) has been dyno'ed at 169hp.



So this begs the question, outside of the electronics, you're paying a very high premium for a small gain in performance (obviously with the BMW out of the equation). It doesn't matter if you're talking about the BPF technology in the front forks either. They're only incrementally better than the forks from the 2nd generation liter bikes.

You may also argue that the weights have come down. The truth of the matter is that 1st, the MV F4 1000S exhaust is a boat anchor and replacing it cuts almost 20lbs from the bike. So now you're in the ballpark of wet weights with the current offerings. Additionally, my bike wasn't the class leader back in '05. The '05 ZX10R was, and that bike had a wet weight that rivals and even trumps many of the current offerings on the market today.

On the other hand, what I WILL say is that tire development has come a long way in 10 years and that is the main cause of the discrepancy in lap times. Throw any new gen tires on 2nd gen liter bike and you've got laptimes that are all pretty darn close. Dunlop Q3 tires are probably worth 5 seconds a lap over the Michelin Pilot Power that was all the rage back in '05. Maybe even more time.

On another note, we are in a time of rapid development of traction control systems right now and all of these traction control units are unrefined with the exception of the Yamaha and the Aprilia. The rest of them kind of suck or are really intrusive. As a result, it's hard to justify the cost of these bikes even with the hyped up electronics. At least it's hard for me. As a side point, as much as I love the Ninja H2 (not the R), the electronics package was actually criticized in one of the expert reviews.

So, getting back to my original point, the Suzuki is a very attractive buy. For the reason that it's in the ballpark of adequate power in stock form. Flashing the ECU and doing some smart mods gets it in the high 160hp range. Very close to 170 or more at times. You don't pay the high cost of the bells and whistles like with some of the other bikes and instead of getting an unrefined TC system that you paid a premium for, Suzuki saves you money and eliminates it altogether. Add to that they are cheap to fix, easy to source parts for, and easy to set up for very fast riding.

$10,000 GSXR1000s and you got a real winner for budget minded and smart buyers who don't buy into the hype and novelty concerning the sportbike market today.

I'll take mine in Red please. ....

SECTION8 FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-04-2015, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo329 View Post
Let's take my bike as the 10 year old example.

2005 MV F4 1000S - It makes [email protected],500rpm and is 189 lbs Wet

Now look at some of the current offerings of the other Manufacturers in recent memory:



Aprilia
2013 RSV4 Factory = [email protected],500rpm / 465 lbs Wet

BMW
2014 S1000RR = [email protected],200 / 461 lbs Wet

Ducati
2013 1199 Panigale R = [email protected],600rpm / 421 lbs Wet
*I couldn't find reliable 1299 Panigale data.

Honda
2014 CBR1000RR SP = [email protected],400rpm / 450 lbs wet
2014 CBR1000RR =
[email protected],700rpm / 447 lbs wet

Kawasaki
2012 ZX10R (US) = [email protected],600rpm / 442 lbs wet

MV Agusta
2013 F4RR ($25k version) = [email protected],500rpm / 469 lbs Wet

Suzuki
2012 GSX-R1000 = [email protected],600 / 447lbs wet

Yamaha
2012 YZF-R1 = [email protected],800 / 475hp Wet
* Various reports show that the new 2015 R1 (US version) has been dyno'ed at 169hp.
For profound weight savings of that magnitude, you surely must have installed the carbon fiber tank covers on your MV that were all the rage back then...

All things being equal, superior skill will always prevail. However, with the advances being made in electronics today as exemplified by the current R1 (and which have long been a staple of premier class MotoGP racing) a rider of your skill level on the GSXR will be at a significant (and continuously growing) disadvantage competing against riders of comparable skill who have the benefit of the aforementioned modern technologies.


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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-04-2015, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bsess View Post
All things being equal, superior skill will always prevail. However, with the advances being made in electronics today as exemplified by the current R1 (and which have long been a staple of premier class MotoGP racing) a rider of your skill level on the GSXR will be at a significant (and continuously growing) disadvantage competing against riders of comparable skill who have the benefit of the aforementioned modern technologies.
On paper yes. However my argument is that in the real world not so much.

The person that I mentioned earlier who rode his CBR within 4 seconds of the lap record recently sold his CBR and got an S1000RR. His lap times are the same. Still faster than everyone at the track though.

Take 2 riders of equal skill level (which never happens), and put one on a 2014 CBR1000RR and the other on a 2015 R1. If the track is open, sure maybe the guy on the 2015 R1 pulls out a gap, all things being equal. But there are too many variables at play. Rider fatigue, other lap traffic, tire condition, weight of fuel in the tank, etc, etc.

A fast guy on a GSX-R1000 is not guaranteed to get his azz handed to him just because his other A group friends have the latest and greatest. I see it every single weekend I go to the track. And at the pro level, I would say that Roger Hayden did pretty good holding his own against the 2015 Yamahas. ....and I don't think he's the best rider either. If you put Spies or Mladin on R. Hayden's bike do you think they would still get duffed up by the other riders on their shiny new R1s. I would beg to differ.

If I understood your point correctly, you are basically saying that any of the aforementioned riders would go faster if they had a newer bike. My argument, and yes it's an unpopular view, is that it doesn't always work out that way. Just because one has an advantage doesn't mean that they'll always be able to exploit that advantage. Which is why for 98% of us, it really doesn't matter.

After thinking hard on this, I think that one's brain determines how fast one can go. However, the bike will determine how "EASY" it is to go as fast as your brain will allow you. I could swallow that. But I don't subscribe at all to the idea that the bike will make a person faster, as all the advertisements will have a person believe.

SECTION8 FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Turbo329 View Post
Dunlop Q3 tires are probably worth 5 seconds a lap over the Michelin Pilot Power that was all the rage back in '05. Maybe even more time.
You know that five seconds is a lot, don't you?


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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 11:20 AM
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You know that five seconds is a lot, don't you?
Not a lot, an eternity as far as track times go.

Shame on me, my heart is black.
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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-07-2015, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
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You know that five seconds is a lot, don't you?
Absolutely!

It seems as if you may have misunderstood my post.

I was saying that outside of the electronics, bikes have not made earth shattering advancements within the last decade (not including the BMW's stock motor). Tires on the other hand, have made leaps and bounds and if you were to take a new set of tires from today's generation and put them on a liter bike from years past, you would have laptimes very close to what the new bikes are putting out in the reviews.

SECTION8 FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-11-2015, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Turbo329 View Post
On paper yes. However my argument is that in the real world not so much.

The person that I mentioned earlier who rode his CBR within 4 seconds of the lap record recently sold his CBR and got an S1000RR. His lap times are the same. Still faster than everyone at the track though.

Take 2 riders of equal skill level (which never happens), and put one on a 2014 CBR1000RR and the other on a 2015 R1. If the track is open, sure maybe the guy on the 2015 R1 pulls out a gap, all things being equal. But there are too many variables at play. Rider fatigue, other lap traffic, tire condition, weight of fuel in the tank, etc, etc.

A fast guy on a GSX-R1000 is not guaranteed to get his azz handed to him just because his other A group friends have the latest and greatest. I see it every single weekend I go to the track. And at the pro level, I would say that Roger Hayden did pretty good holding his own against the 2015 Yamahas. ....and I don't think he's the best rider either. If you put Spies or Mladin on R. Hayden's bike do you think they would still get duffed up by the other riders on their shiny new R1s. I would beg to differ.

If I understood your point correctly, you are basically saying that any of the aforementioned riders would go faster if they had a newer bike. My argument, and yes it's an unpopular view, is that it doesn't always work out that way. Just because one has an advantage doesn't mean that they'll always be able to exploit that advantage. Which is why for 98% of us, it really doesn't matter.

After thinking hard on this, I think that one's brain determines how fast one can go. However, the bike will determine how "EASY" it is to go as fast as your brain will allow you. I could swallow that. But I don't subscribe at all to the idea that the bike will make a person faster, as all the advertisements will have a person believe.
Unfortunately, I don't beieve you are even remotely grasping how the bundle of technologies contained in the new R1M will make you faster right out of the box BUT, will also enable you to become (that means to learn your stubborn ass something) a much faster rider. Rather than focus purely on the objective results of new and old on comparison reviews, I suggest you give the September issue of Cycleworld a read and see if you can figure out why array of technologies on the R1M will effectively teach you how to safely exlpore and EXPAND your limits in ways that an old GSXR simply cannot possibly do without putting yourself at uncessary risk of harm and epic highside launches. Neither you or I possess the world class throttle control and feel for front and rear traction at the limits of adhesion that our favorite MotoGP heros do and even they reply heavily on the technology. In fact, without it, most would be dead, permanently injured and/or alot slower than they are now.

PM your phone number and I'll be happy to explain everything to you on the phone.


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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-11-2015, 10:33 AM
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the ZX-10R will be updated apparently .Looks like it will have a more conventional rear suspension set up.meatier swingarm,new traction control( I think by KYB) and some neat new headlights

also maybe the ZX14 will be styled a bit more like the H2

(this is all from young machine,so can't vouch for anything)

also read the 2016 r1 base bike will be using aluminium wheels instead of magnesium
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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-12-2015, 03:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bsess View Post
Unfortunately, I don't beieve you are even remotely grasping how the bundle of technologies contained in the new R1M will make you faster right out of the box BUT, will also enable you to become (that means to learn your stubborn ass something) a much faster rider. Rather than focus purely on the objective results of new and old on comparison reviews, I suggest you give the September issue of Cycleworld a read and see if you can figure out why array of technologies on the R1M will effectively teach you how to safely exlpore and EXPAND your limits in ways that an old GSXR simply cannot possibly do without putting yourself at uncessary risk of harm and epic highside launches. Neither you or I possess the world class throttle control and feel for front and rear traction at the limits of adhesion that our favorite MotoGP heros do and even they reply heavily on the technology. In fact, without it, most would be dead, permanently injured and/or alot slower than they are now.

PM your phone number and I'll be happy to explain everything to you on the phone.


I get it bro. I get it. The rider aids do help us not to hurt ourselves.


My stubborn butt will be all the merrier hunting down new R1s next season with my newly PCIII'ed F4 1000S with custom map and race fuel. Maybe I'll even throw on a full system. Should be good for a genuine 170hp.






















These boys had the right idea.






SECTION8 FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-12-2015, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by simonkobe View Post
the ZX-10R will be updated apparently .Looks like it will have a more conventional rear suspension set up.meatier swingarm,new traction control( I think by KYB) and some neat new headlights

also maybe the ZX14 will be styled a bit more like the H2

(this is all from young machine,so can't vouch for anything)

also read the 2016 r1 base bike will be using aluminium wheels instead of magnesium




Great points. Based on what I saw from the sneak peak, I like the fact that they changed the ZX10R's upper fairing. The stock wind screen sticking out by itself of the front fairing looks hideous. Lots of the race bodywork changed the way it looked too.


Regarding the R1's wheels, "Cast" magnesium should not be used on stock bikes. They typically come with a 2 year warranty when you buy them separately. The wheels are very sensitive to weather conditions and can corrode rather easily. Most 2015 R1 wheels will be ready for the trash by 2017, especially for bikes stored outside or on the east coast where humid and moist conditions prevail. It's the same reason why any serious car restoration expert knows not to buy an East Coast car. They specifically look for West Coast vehicles that spent their lives in dry climates.

SECTION8 FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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post #31 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-12-2015, 03:54 PM
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I had another read of the mag today.
Looks like there might be a 3rd version of the R1 (maybe for the Japanese market?)

it will be a bit cheaper and have the alloy wheels
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