engine build and break in procedure...myths? - Speedzilla Motorcycle Message Forums
 
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-24-2014, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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engine build and break in procedure...myths?

so i built up my "street" VTR engine a while bike with STD bore JE high compression pistons. now i am doing the same with my "track" VTR engine and 2 things have come to light that i wanna run past you fine folk.

the 2 problems i have uncovered

1. Honing Cylinders is POINTLESS and actually HARMS your engine; the only exception being on damaged/rebore to OverSize cylinders.
Article to support this :
Careful with That Hone, Eugene!

2. "Easy" break-in on the new rings is bad and results in burning of oil and loss of power leading to overall damage. For example "taking it easy" for the first 600 miles, as per the manufacturers recommended break in procedure results in improper ring seal leading to problems and poor performance. the theory is that to properly seal new rings, which do not rely on spring tension to seal as they have minimal spring tension, but rather the gases getting underneath the rings and forcing them out against the wall helping them to seal properly. the only way to achieve this is through running the engine hard on acceleration and deceleration, loading the engine both ways. during decel, the vaccum created sucks out any particles rather than them getting get between your rings and piston and eventually causing damage to the cylinder wall.
Article to support this:
Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

Now neither of these articles are where i learned of these so called automotive "myths". Rather i learned of them on a recent trip to the Monterrey Rolex Historic's AKA Vintage car racing. I am close with a few of the drivers and there mechanics which build and rebuild these motors all the time. so this is coming from knowledgeable people who do this professionally. Now the premise of these practices being refuted is that engine's are made to a much better quality, with much finer tolerances, and higher quality parts than motors of decades past and these "ancient ways" are not only unnecessary, but down right bad.

ahhh but again you say if these old techniques dont apply to new engines, wouldnt the teams racing vintage cars, still abide by the laws of the past? NO because even though the car is old, the motor is new. i recant what i said, most of the cars really arnt even the cars they are suppose to be. they usually are the body of the car, and by that i mean a fibreglass replica with flared wheel wells and all, but underneath is usually a tube chassis with purpose built race engines. usually the tail lights are about the only thing these cars share with the car they are replicating.

so my "street" engine build, i did the traditional "easy" break in, as well as a simple hone on the cylinders. but on my "track" engine, i will do just the opposite. NO hone at all, and a hard break in. i will then compare results via 1.leakdown test 2.compression test 3.Dyno runs to measure power and torque.

now i have before and after dyno runs (thanks to my mates over at ducati) of the "street" engine pre and post piston install with NO other changes.
i will do the same with the "track" engine, the only difference being no hone, and a hard break in. then i will compare the % of either increase(hopefully) or loss of power due to the changes in the build and break in procedure. the compression and leakdown should tell alot of the story as well.

should be interesting, but ive come to find out that my ducati dealer uses the "hard" break in procedure and all freshly out of the crate bikes INCLUDING the $70,000 1199 Superleggera AND in their shop, purely on Re-Ring jobs that have no damage to cylinder walls, they DO NOT hone the cylinder. they simply check for tolerance specs, and if all is well, re-ring and button it up. a number of the bikes that come through the shop have been upgraded with low friction 2 ring pistons which require changing more often. so this info is consistent with what i learned in Monterrey. hence why i am trying it all out.

i know some of you will call me stupid, and that i will destroy my engine, but i wanna know for myself what the truth is in these matters and its a risk i am willing to take. from the research ive done, and the people ive talked to, id be stupid to hone the bores, as well as loosing on power if i run the engine in easy. so we shall see! would love to know what you guys make of all this!

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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-24-2014, 06:39 PM
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This debate will continue into the next century b/c "easy" and "hard" are relative , non-descriptive terms . I don't think even the major bike manu's recommend droning around for 600 miles . In fact , I remember an article of a few years ago by the guy responsible for Honda's U.S. press bike fleet , who recommends "using the entire tach on a new engine , going up and down in revs , but not staying at redline for an extended time or cruising at one rpm for very long . " It's true , he didn't say to ride it like you stole it which is what the so called "hard" procedure implies , but I wouldn't do this anyway on a street bike one intends to ride for a long time . Remember , also , a new bike has other parts besides rings that need to be mated properly to other surfaces ; like the transmission whose fresh gears won't respond well to repeated redline blasts .


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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-24-2014, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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The "hard" break in doesn't imply "ride it like you stole it"

In fact if you read the article it insists on a methodic use of the revs, loading the engine on accel and decel, in all gears for the first, 20 miles, change the oil, then continue to ride up and down the revs and through the gears.

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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-24-2014, 11:58 PM
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I see . Didn't read the article b/c I've heard all sides after 42 years of riding , but "hard" break-in has usually meant 'ride the shit out of it' . But if the advice is to go up and down the entire rev-range w/o spending much time at a single rpm , then that's the (well known) procedure I've always used , and I certainly wouldn't call this method "hard" in the traditional sense . But again , on a brand new bike , I'm also focused on wearing in the transmission properly , making sure gear changes are done deliberately and smoothly which of course doesn't always mean super-quickly when you're dealing with a tight tranny . Good luck .


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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-25-2014, 03:16 AM Thread Starter
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yes your are 100% correct. which is why a little more "flogging" is okay on my sort of build where its really only new pistons and rings your trying to break in.

i will say i havnt researched brand new full motors as much as new pistons and rings. so im sure its different if you add in new valves, seats, cams, crank, gearbox, bearings, etc...

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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-25-2014, 12:39 PM
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I agree that in your particular case, the hard break-in makes even more sense as the bearings, tranny,... are already broken-in. You are truly only looking at seating the rings, which seems to be perfect scenario for the Mototune method.

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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 06:49 AM
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Not honing ... ???

I believe brand new liners/blocks come pre-honed so yes I can see in that case honing is not required, but not honing a bore that has never seen a hone will surely not allow a ring to bed in.

Why? Because the point of honing is to rough up the cylinder wall so the rings can bite in.

Otherwise I agree, running in is just a waste of time. Just drive it like you would normally drive making sure you don't sit on constant rpm for too long.
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 08-26-2014, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
Not honing ... ???

I believe brand new liners/blocks come pre-honed so yes I can see in that case honing is not required, but not honing a bore that has never seen a hone will surely not allow a ring to bed in.

Why? Because the point of honing is to rough up the cylinder wall so the rings can bite in.
your right, i am ONLY referring to cylinders which have been factory honed that are within tolerance, that have no damage to the cylinder wall.

the point is that once you have a motor with X amount of miles, and have a highly polished / smooth bore, still where the factory cross hatch is visible, why in gods name would you wanna take the crudest of tools and basically purposely scratch the shit out of your cylinder, forcing the rings to rub away the peaks, leaving deposits in the valleys, and giving you an overall larger cylinder giving looser tolerances?

the answer is your are doing more harm than good. the idea that new rings need a "rough" wall to "bed" into is old thinking that comes from days when engines were made much less precise and people thought the cylinders "glazed" up, which isnt true. drum brakes glaze. but cylinders do not. rings and the cylinders themselves are of such high quality that a highly polished bore is the best thing for the rings to create a seal with.

like i said if there is damage on the cylinder wall, or a re-bore to oversize, then yes honing is needed. im basically reffering to re-ring jobs only or in my case new pistons and rings but the same principle applies.

2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-03-2014, 08:12 PM
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I wish I had seen this when you first posted, my work computer here is not letting me look at your links but I am guessing by the sounds of it, it is the same link I posted up Years ago, just to see what some of the guys thought...

My brother sent me a video link in 2005 of the Moto Man or something like that and I liked everything he had to say about breaking in an engine and I broke my brand New RC51 in just as he instructed how, accel/deccel. ON the Gas and Off the gas without pulling in the clutch... I rode it hard but didn't run the Crap out of it... Oil changed at 24 miles and I even changed it 2 or 3 more times before she had 700 miles on her.

I can tell you this about My RC51, she's got 60,000 miles on her and she does NOT burn a drop of oil, I can start her cold in front of a clean piece of blue board in my garage door with the exhaust just inches away from the stuff and when I Fire her up, she doesn't blow even a spec of oil on the blue board!

IMHO She's Right & Tight!


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