double braced swingarm... - Speedzilla Motorcycle Message Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 03:19 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 69
double braced swingarm...

I know for you RC guys, your bike comes stock with a pretty damn good swingarm. for us VTR guys, we have to get a little creative and its common practice to cut the swinger brace off of a CBR900RR and weld it to our own swinger. its usually done before or after USD fork swaps to get the same planted feeling from both wheels.

anyway i saw this upper and lower swinger brace (stock swinger has no braces) on this VF1000R and thought it was very strange. seems like theres 2 problems IMO.

one being that how stiff is too stiff? i feel like there is a point where you are loosing "feel" as well as making it harder for your tires to keep good contact while at full lean. i think its known that you need some flex since the suspension cant absorb bumps when horizontal. also i think (at least in the VTR's case) that the bike was over engineered and handles things like inverted forks, braced swingarms, and upped BHP very well. but my point is that if i tried to stick the massivley thick forks from a Panigale on my bike, im sure it would do more harm than good because its just too stiff for my chassis. isnt 2 swinger braces overkill?

another problem is that it seems like even if the added rigidity from TWO braces was a benefit... the added unsprung weight would just put you further behind in terms of improvements to the bike.

just wondering your thoughts on this and chassis dynamics in general in terms of modification from stock




2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
jscobey is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-10-2014, 06:17 PM
TOP GUN Instructor
 
RVTMAVERICK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where I >Try to LIVE< Always within the Moment of Thanksgiving to Christ Jesus, My Lord Saviour!
Posts: 5,717
FWIW: The Swingarm on this VF1000R is not what comes on the MC OEM for the street....
These swingarms from the pass I usually ONLY see them on Suzukis with Turbos or the like...

He's got different BETTER Rims and Forks Brakes... Dude has a SWEET VF1000R!


But yeah, Swingarm looks like WAY OVER Kill to me.. I would have rather put an RC51 Swinger on there.
RVTMAVERICK is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-13-2014, 05:34 PM
LDH
Senior Member
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,958
Send a message via AIM to LDH Send a message via MSN to LDH Send a message via Yahoo to LDH
Lots of variables in those old heavy bikes. Square section steel frames and easily 530-550lbs of machine in those days worked the suspension on both ends pretty hard for flex. The Suspension was crap too and oscillations had to be stopped before they started or you were SOL which is where extra bracing comes into play.

On another forum I actually had a decent argument with a guy about the Superhawk and how poorly it handled as a trackbike and how grippy race tires overwhelmed the frame. He cited your bike specifically as an example of how wrong I was. I then pointed out the mods you had done for suspension, USD forks and bracing.

The advancements in design and materials between the VF1000R and the Superhawk are worlds away from each other, but the dynamics are the same. There is a point where too stiff is bad which is why tuned flex is incorporated in every current bike chassis made, but 30 years ago it was a completely different venue for motorcycles and you would be hard pressed to find a chassis that didn't benefit from more rigidity at least in terms of race use. Never underestimate the physics of it though. Colin Edwards SP2 racebike ultimately ended up having a frame bolt removed to soften the flex of the chassis which proves the engineers cannot always figure out what is going to happen in the real world. More grip from the tires, more compliance from the suspension or vice-versa will change how much the chassis needs to flex to do its job not to mention how hard the bike is actually being ridden. The guy doing 1:50's at Laguna does not need the same level of chassis design as the guy doing sub 1:30's and it is not completely unheard of to say some bikes are overbuilt for average use either.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
LDH is offline  
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-13-2014, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 69
I agree. I knew a long time ago that the superhawk was no race bike. To get the VTR anything close to a decent track bike, you need to upgrade almost every component that makes up the bike. Most notably the shock, forks, swingarm, calipers, rotors, MC, etc.... And that's just to get it to handle well and stop in a good distance.

And then on top of all that, if you want it to be competitive with modern repli racers your talking about lightend flywheel, quick action throttle, cams, pistons, stacks, light weight wheels, 520 chain, shorter gearing, strengthened frame, shift kit, slipper clutch, etc....

You can see how a track ready competitive VTR gets very expensive very quickly. For some reason I just don't want an r6 or a CBR or something. I love the VTR to much. Only other bike I'd consider is the RC or maybbbbeeeeee an 899 but it rides more like an I4 than a twin.

2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
jscobey is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-13-2014, 09:55 PM
Senior Member
 
AKDMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: WNC
Posts: 2,728
Garage
RC8 or 1290 Superduke R would probably blow your mind then.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and much more
along with
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Aprilia SXV 550
KX450F

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
AKDMA is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-14-2014, 03:06 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 69
maybe its about having something unique. i never get tired of flying by guys on r1's at the track on my carb'd 98. alot of character in the VTR. and ive done so much to make it suit me and i feel so at home on it. its very easy to ride fast.

the RC8 is good but not great. although i like its analog nature appose to bikes with TC and all that. the 899 however is a great bike but was very much skimped in terms of parts due to keeping its price competitive. i like that it revs so high and so fast, but its just not that throaty torquey monster you would expect from a big twin. although its deceptively fast...

and the rc51 is an AWESOME bike but still needs loads of money dumped into it and doesnt make much more power than my hawk. about the same once i finish my engine build.

the bottom line is that i cant fully utilize bikes that come stock with 180hp. neither can 90% of riders. my goal is to get around 120-130hp out of my hawk via a mild tune. also some weight reduction and a few other upgrades and ill be set. parts are plentiful (for the time being) and cheap. easy to work on. even easier to maintain.

2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
jscobey is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-14-2014, 03:51 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,632
There's a definite satisfaction that comes from putting your personal imprint on your bike...... There are some remarkable stock machines out there, but they are all built for a certain "average" buyer, and there is alwyas some mprovemnt, and personal satisfaction, from personalizing it for your own use and riding style..... my opinion anyhow.....

99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
mikstr is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-14-2014, 04:25 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 69
the downside Mik, especially with track riding, is that there is always the chance of complete destruction of your bike which really sucks when you have countless hours and lots of money put into it. its not easily replaced like a somewhat stock bike is.

2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
jscobey is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-14-2014, 06:53 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,632
very true, but it can also happen while street riding via a texting soccer mom in an SUV ....... there are no guarantees unless you plan on leaving it as a showpiece in a garage....

99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
mikstr is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-14-2014, 11:06 PM
LDH
Senior Member
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,958
Send a message via AIM to LDH Send a message via MSN to LDH Send a message via Yahoo to LDH
You cannot worry about those kinds of things. I used to get the question all the time when I would roll that carbon fiber and gold RC51 through tech, but that is what it was made for. If I **** it up so be it it is a pay to play game.




My 1000RR wasn't quite as flashy as the RC51, but with all the HRC, Ohlins, Marchesini and Brembo on it it was actually a higher monetary value and I have thrown it away more times than I care to admit. Ironically when I was doing 50-60 track events per season as an instructor I crashed less on i than I have since I reduced that total to around 10-14 events per season. Ultimately you just gotta ride them for what they are not for what they are worth.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
LDH is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2014, 02:09 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 69
yea i know the risks and accept them every time i throw my leg over. street or track, neither are without there dangers.

LDH that RC is F***ing beautiful!!!!

back to the topic of the thread and a question for you Mik. have you done anything along the lines of the Roger D. style frame bracing to cope with the added bhp of your engine? i know you use the bike mostly for touring but wondering your thoughts on this.

im about to start my engine build which is mild and will likely land me around a 125hp and im considering doing the bracing at the headstock, the 3rd spars, and the plating over the diamond rear section.

its not that i think that its to much power for the stock frame. its more about handling and cornering loads.

i think with the added rigidity of the USD forks and the braced swingarm, its logical to go to the frame next. are there potential drawbacks from the frame modifications?

2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
jscobey is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2014, 03:16 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,632
I did my reinforcing ghetto-style, lol. I filled in the steering head area and the angled braces with metal epoxy putty. Silly as it sounds, it works and the frame felt much more solid after I did it. I also filled up the swingarm pivot and upper engine mount with epoxy to make them more solid. Again, silly, but it works. I do what I can with what I have.......

99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
mikstr is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2014, 03:18 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 69
gotcha. well my buddy can easily do it the real way so that not a problem. so you filled the swinger pivot housing with epoxy?

2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
jscobey is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2014, 04:40 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,632
yes, my thought was that given the reported issues with the cases flexing, added rigidity in the axle would only help to maintain its integrity. Similarly, the long engine mount (rear-most one) I also filled.

99 VTR1000F Firestorm, a.k.a. The Carbon Express
mikstr is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-15-2014, 05:31 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 69
do you have any idea what your beast is putting out in terms of hp and torque?

im working on cams right now. im probably gonna go with hardwelds from webcams. close to Stg 1 spec. ive got a source for brand new stage 1 moris but at $1500 i think ill settle for slightly lower spec hardwelds at around $600.

2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
jscobey is offline  
post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 04:56 PM
LDH
Senior Member
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,958
Send a message via AIM to LDH Send a message via MSN to LDH Send a message via Yahoo to LDH
Quote:
Originally Posted by jscobey View Post
i think with the added rigidity of the USD forks and the braced swingarm, its logical to go to the frame next. are there potential drawbacks from the frame modifications?

The drawbacks are getting it wrong. Too much ridigity overall or even in just the wrong areas can lead to lack of grip, handling woes like not holding the line or understeer etc. Mismatched flex can lead to oscillations (tank slappers) sometimes even unrecoverable. These are extreme examples, but it can happen. Physics is a bitch and trial and error is many cases is the only way to find out, but getting it wrong can be catastrophic with what we are doing. I always suggest baby steps that way if something you are doing isn't working as planned you can at the very least stop even if you cannot revert.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
LDH is offline  
post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 69
yea exactly. the bracing im referring to is pretty tried and true on multiple bikes and originated from race bike builders. what im wondering is with a mildly tuned (125ish?) do i need all 3 areas braced? do i need it to be that stiff? would one or two areas be sufficient?

2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
jscobey is offline  
post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 05:38 PM
LDH
Senior Member
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,958
Send a message via AIM to LDH Send a message via MSN to LDH Send a message via Yahoo to LDH
Quote:
Originally Posted by jscobey View Post
yea exactly. the bracing im referring to is pretty tried and true on multiple bikes and originated from race bike builders. what im wondering is with a mildly tuned (125ish?) do i need all 3 areas braced? do i need it to be that stiff? would one or two areas be sufficient?

You may very well be just fine with what you have done already. Do you have a custom triple clamp now too or just an OEM one for the USD's?

What kind of lap times you running at Buttonwillow Config #13?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
LDH is offline  
post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
jscobey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 69
no i just have the stock SP1 triples.

at BW #13 which is clockwise, im doing about a 2:12 or 2:13

not lightening fast but not to bad for a 98 with carbiess.

2004 Hayden SP2: Ohlins Shock, Racetek Fork Internals, OZ Piega Rims, Magura Radial MC, Radial Brake Brackets, Brembo Monoblocks, Brembo Underslung Rear Brake, GPR High Mounts, Woodcraft Rearsets, PC3 USB, Dynojet Quikshifter, Hotbodies Undertail, 520 Chain, SS Lines, Pinch Bolt Res Mount, Keyless Gas Cap & Ignition, Flapper Valve & Soft Rev Eliminated, Rizoma Bar End Mirror.
jscobey is offline  
post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-16-2014, 06:25 PM
LDH
Senior Member
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,958
Send a message via AIM to LDH Send a message via MSN to LDH Send a message via Yahoo to LDH
Quote:
Originally Posted by jscobey View Post
no i just have the stock SP1 triples.

at BW #13 which is clockwise, im doing about a 2:12 or 2:13

not lightening fast but not to bad for a 98 with carbiess.

That is a good solid top of the B Group pace. The bike looks pretty sorted in the video and you have already done some pretty substantial chassis mods. Do not underestimate the rigidity on those forks alone. HUGE difference over the conventional Superhawk units.

If I were you I would go for the motor mods, try them out and then worry about the frame if you find it to be lacking in the future. I'm betting you won't have any issues at all.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
LDH is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Speedzilla Motorcycle Message Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome