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post #41 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SP-2RIDER View Post
Although Bazzaz does make a traction control module. It does not appear that they make one for the RC. Also the OP made no reference to traction control in his post.

Hey 2rider,... Check OPs last sentence, very Bottom of his thread or Post.... this is why I've replied to the TC info.,...
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post #42 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-09-2012, 11:32 PM
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What if you're only comparing Auto Tune, then which is superior, in your opinion?



Good to know. I currently have the PC3USB, and an auto tune is looking pretty good to me...

Hey Ika-Kun,

So..... You've got the "Auto Tune" >Working< with the Power Commander III USB?!?
IF so, I got this right and You are running your RC51 with a Power Commander III USB & the Auto Tune;.. about the O2 sensor,... Are you running 1 to each header pipe up close to the Heads or just 1 at the Collector?

I didn't know the Auto Tune worked with the PC-IIIUSB, I thought it had to be installed with the PC-V...?

TIA

Peace Jeff
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post #43 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 06:26 PM
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No, Jeff. No he didn't.

Anyway, looks like the Z-Fi for the RC51 is on the market...

02 06 Honda RC51 RC V Twin Bazzaz Z Fi Fuel Injection bpd PCV ZFI Controller | eBay

I will be buying one and the auto tune after Christmas, and once the snow melts and I get some seat time with it, I'll post up a review if nobody beats me to it. Right now, I have a PCIII running a custom tune built on a dyno.

Another benefit to the auto tune is that if anyone remembers, I'm working on some exhausts for the piggy, and the auto tune will help me tune the bike to the different exhausts and will allow me to afford to get the pipes on the dyno for some no bullshit real world numbers.

'00 RC51
'05 ST1300 streetfighter
'03 YZ85 supermoto
'90 VTR250
'71 T500R

Distant thunder, cold as stone. An RC bellows from its throne. One by one, each bike succumbs. Something wicked this way comes.

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post #44 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 10:14 PM
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Hey 2rider,... Check OPs last sentence, very Bottom of his thread or Post.... this is why I've replied to the TC info.,...
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post #45 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-12-2012, 04:12 AM
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Hmm. I see it listed for 02-06 only. Is there a different controller for the 00-01?


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post #46 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 12:45 AM
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Without looking back at the link/ press release in the first post, I believe they're only doing them for the SP2. Time to upgrade those TB's and ECU, eh?

'00 RC51
'05 ST1300 streetfighter
'03 YZ85 supermoto
'90 VTR250
'71 T500R

Distant thunder, cold as stone. An RC bellows from its throne. One by one, each bike succumbs. Something wicked this way comes.

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post #47 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:06 AM
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Without looking back at the link/ press release in the first post, I believe they're only doing them for the SP2. Time to upgrade those TB's and ECU, eh?

I wouldn't... I have always found the better mid-range performance of the smaller throttle bodies on the SP1 over the SP2 to be the greatest advantage. In fact it could easily be argued that the larger throttle bodies on the SP2 are actually a downgrade along with the additional radiator fan.

Both of those items helped the commuter in stop & go traffic by reducing some of the on/off throttle snatch at very low rpms and keeping the bike cooler in those conditions, but severely hurt the performance in regards to riders trying to simply ride aggressively on the backroads or track.

The larger throttle bodies neutered the mid-range pull of the SP2 in exchange for a few more peak horsepower, but how often do you really ride around at 10,200 rpm with the throttle pinned to the stop? In contrast you can easily make use of the mid-range pull of the motor almost constantly coming out of every single turn.


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post #48 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:17 AM
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Yep yep, well aware of the HP loss of the SP2 TB's on an SP1. I mention the TB's because as far as I know, you need them to run the SP2 ECU. Or is it really just the injectors?

How much of a power loss are the SP2 TB's when ported heads, Wiseco pistons, and a T1 airbox come into the picture?

'00 RC51
'05 ST1300 streetfighter
'03 YZ85 supermoto
'90 VTR250
'71 T500R

Distant thunder, cold as stone. An RC bellows from its throne. One by one, each bike succumbs. Something wicked this way comes.

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post #49 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Luck Runs Out... View Post
Yep yep, well aware of the HP loss of the SP2 TB's on an SP1. I mention the TB's because as far as I know, you need them to run the SP2 ECU. Or is it really just the injectors?

How much of a power loss are the SP2 TB's when ported heads, Wiseco pistons, and a T1 airbox come into the picture?

Good question... In my experience and that of some others. There are virtually no gains from porting or airbox mods. Most people that claim otherwise have no proof as they either did those mods in combination with a full exhaust and/or cams etc or they simply had no baseline dyno work to compare against. Even some of the ones that did do baseline dyno runs didn't bother to do a complete & optimal mapping for their baseline so it is not an apples to apples comparison to compare a modded and mapped bike to modded and unmapped bike. All their gains could simply be from mapping not the parts that were installed.

High compression pistons are good for about 6hp across the rev range with proper fuel.

Ultimately there is no replacement for displacement and the same is true with throttle body and intake tract characteristics. Smaller TB'S will yield better mid-range performance versus larger TB's yielding better peak. That, as a general statement, will ring true regardless of mods.


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post #50 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 02:25 AM
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Hey Mike;
I really just don't understand WHY You keep shooting down the BIG AirBox mod. ?
I told you the last time I saw you said these remarks to check out Hord's web-site... RC51 Dyno graphs... So I would say, since you're still shooting this down You never Looked at JHords Dyno Proof about the Big AirBox mod., So I'll post it up here for YOU... here IS Your "NEW old RC51 Education" for you..
It's been proven Years ago that it IS a Great Mod.!

I Hope this Finally Helps You..

Hordpower :: Honda RC51 :: RC51durb

Red line = Stock Air Box...
Blue Line= Thorsten AirBox NO change to the EFI map
Green Line= Custom EFI map for Thorsten AirBox



Peace Jeff


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Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Good question... In my experience and that of some others. There are virtually no gains from porting or airbox mods. Most people that claim otherwise have no proof as they either did those mods in combination with a full exhaust and/or cams etc or they simply had no baseline dyno work to compare against. Even some of the ones that did do baseline dyno runs didn't bother to do a complete & optimal mapping for their baseline so it is not an apples to apples comparison to compare a modded and mapped bike to modded and unmapped bike. All their gains could simply be from mapping not the parts that were installed.

High compression pistons are good for about 6hp across the rev range with proper fuel.

Ultimately there is no replacement for displacement and the same is true with throttle body and intake tract characteristics. Smaller TB'S will yield better mid-range performance versus larger TB's yielding better peak. That, as a general statement, will ring true regardless of mods.
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post #51 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RVTMAVERICK View Post
Hey Mike;
I really just don't understand WHY You keep shooting down the BIG AirBox mod. ?
I told you the last time I saw you said these remarks to check out Hord's web-site... RC51 Dyno graphs... So I would say, since you're still shooting this down You never Looked at JHords Dyno Proof about the Big AirBox mod., So I'll post it up here for YOU... here IS Your "NEW old RC51 Education" for you..
It's been proven Years ago that it IS a Great Mod.!

I Hope this Finally Helps You..

Hordpower :: Honda RC51 :: RC51durb

Red line = Stock Air Box...
Blue Line= Thorsten AirBox NO change to the EFI map
Green Line= Custom EFI map for Thorsten AirBox



Peace Jeff

You don't seem to get it that a comparison like that means very little.

If he did not map the stock airbox to its absolute potential, but then you map the new airbox to its absolute potential then you DO NOT know if the airbox actually created the gains or the mapping or what combination of the two is responsible. You could just as easily lost horsepower with the install of a larger airbox and you would never know it unless you had a properly mapped baseline run that was extracting all the possible performance from the original configuration with the stock airbox.

Here is a thread on the RC51forums site with a lot of detail about this scenario. Raleigh did the proper dyno tune baseline both before and after the airbox install and he got basically nothing in return. The only caveat is he had the bike tuned to a target of 13.1 instead of the 12.6 I would like to see, but either way the gains were not there.

F Bomb vs. The Airbox - Page 4 - Honda RC51 Forum : RC51 Motorcycle Forums


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post #52 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 04:18 AM
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The conditions weren't the same... he did the baseline in Feb and when he threw the airbox on, it was 30 degrees warmer. Had he done them back to back, I'd tend to give what he says more credence. Also, if I read right on page one or two, he did NOT get it tuned to the stock airbox... just a baseline run.

'00 RC51
'05 ST1300 streetfighter
'03 YZ85 supermoto
'90 VTR250
'71 T500R

Distant thunder, cold as stone. An RC bellows from its throne. One by one, each bike succumbs. Something wicked this way comes.

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post #53 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Luck Runs Out... View Post
The conditions weren't the same... he did the baseline in Feb and when he threw the airbox on, it was 30 degrees warmer. Had he done them back to back, I'd tend to give what he says more credence. Also, if I read right on page one or two, he did NOT get it tuned to the stock airbox... just a baseline run.

Whatever... His results mimic what I have personally seen and in my opinion environmental factors don't make that much disparity. I mean that is what the correction factor in the dyno software is for. Sure there is some variance, but again whatever. Everybody wants to believe any shred of hope that a larger airbox automagically gives you 6-9 horsepower etc and I'm sorry, but those kinds of gains just don't happen on the induction side of things. I've been dyno tuning motorcycles and atv's for 28 years and I have never seen an airbox yield those kinds of results. Usually a larger airbox helps a bit with mid-range performance or increases throttle response when you whack the throttle open at higher rpms, but they don't just add big horsepower numbers like that.


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post #54 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 01:03 PM
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Whatever... His results mimic what I have personally seen and in my opinion environmental factors don't make that much disparity. I mean that is what the correction factor in the dyno software is for. Sure there is some variance, but again whatever. Everybody wants to believe any shred of hope that a larger airbox automagically gives you 6-9 horsepower etc and I'm sorry, but those kinds of gains just don't happen on the induction side of things. I've been dyno tuning motorcycles and atv's for 28 years and I have never seen an airbox yield those kinds of results. Usually a larger airbox helps a bit with mid-range performance or increases throttle response when you whack the throttle open at higher rpms, but they don't just add big horsepower numbers like that.
Mike,I hated the blubbry pig the day I brought it home it ran like shit So I gave Alex a call and he sent me the sato lows and a pc3 usb Tom Manley built a custom map and I was a happy camper the bike had crisp smooth power.

Fast Fwd. The mod bug infestation took over and a T1 airbox soon arrived so Silverback Performance created another custom map for me jetfxr stunna sbk drew crashem1 tunnelvis and a few others up-here.

That said both competent tuners both configurations provided smooth
crisp power delivery but the mid and top hit NOTICEABLY harder with the T1 box.

I do hord all my paperwork and receipts but even if I could locate the charts two different dynos two different operators SAME rider.

I think 5 pounds of junk dissapeared as well.

Doug Lofgren is the MAN
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post #55 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 03:11 PM
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That said both competent tuners both configurations provided smooth
crisp power delivery but the mid and top hit NOTICEABLY harder with the T1 box.

Tom, let me tell you a little story about 900RR's

Years ago I used to do a lot of jetting work for the dragracers in Memphis. 900RR's were fairly common and would whoop on a GSXR1100 only if the bike was properly jetted and the rider did everything exactly right.

900RR's in stock form had a dip in the power around 6000rpm and if you had the throttle pinned to the stop, in first gear acceleration when it came out of that dip it would lift the front wheel into the air.

Now when I would jet the carbs I would make the power delivery much more linear and it would remove that dip in power in the midrange. With the bike making better power through the midrange it would no longer loft the front wheel so early in the rev range instead it would take another 1500rpm or so before the front wheel would leave the ground. The rejetted carbs are now allowing the engine to produce more power throughout the rev range and the dyno charts backed this up, but the bike no longer snapped the front wheel up just past the midrange dip like it used to so some of the owners of these bikes complained and literally wanted me to put the old jetting back in because it felt faster to them when that hit of power would yank the wheel up.

The point is without actual baseline and end dyno charts to verify the results. It is all subjective even from you Tom...

Ultimately do any of you guys know of any other bike that has ever got 6-9 horsepower from an airbox mod alone? If some guy showed up on this forum claiming his ZX-10R or SV650 gained 6hp just from an airbox swap every single one of you guys would call him out on it, but when RC51 owners make similar claims it must be true.

It makes no ****ing sense whatsoever.


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post #56 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 03:15 PM
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OK. What makes no sense is that you have absolutely NO firsthand experience with these airboxes on these bikes but argue so vehemently over it. Everything you are saying is 100% pure speculation. F*ck the dyno charts. F*ck Thorsten. F*ck T1. F*ck firsthand experience. If it's not done the way you've outlined, it's not worth looking at. I get that you don't think they work. But stop arguing as if you know for a fact when in reality you have no idea. You're just using your personal experience with other bikes and your logic to dismiss something that's been proven by other people. Not to mention Hord, a very very reputable and sought after tuner of twins who's made a name for himself on that merit alone in this business thinks they work. And has dynos. What do you have other than this hypothesis?


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post #57 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 03:30 PM
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OK. What makes no sense is that you have absolutely NO firsthand experience with these airboxes on these bikes but argue so vehemently over it. Everything you are saying is 100% pure speculation. F*ck the dyno charts. F*ck Thorsten. F*ck T1. F*ck firsthand experience. If it's not done the way you've outlined, it's not worth looking at. I get that you don't think they work. But stop arguing as if you know for a fact when in reality you have no idea. You're just using your personal experience with other bikes and your logic to dismiss something that's been proven by other people. Not to mention Hord, a very very reputable and sought after tuner of twins who's made a name for himself on that merit alone in this business thinks they work. And has dynos. What do you have other than this hypothesis?

Pot calling the Kettle black eh...

And what do you have? Some inconclusive dyno charts and a feeling in your gut?

I do not have proof they don't work just as you do not have proof they do.

What I do have is almost 3 decades of carb & fi tuning experience. I have been employed as a tuner, mechanic, test rider, moto-journalist, instructor and trackday promoter. My phone is filled with contacts from tuners to crewchiefs all over the world. I have been involved in bikes and bike tuning basically my entire life with a very large pool of talent and resources to poll data from and not once have I seen from my own testing or any other tuner for that matter legitimate 6-9 horsepower gains on any motorcycle with a simple swap to a larger airbox.


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post #58 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 03:38 PM
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Pot calling the kettle black? No. I actually had an open airbox'ed RC. That's a start. Additionally, as stated before, Hord, who's a a trusted source of information and has tuned a shitload of RC51s, says they work. Has dyno charts. Couple that with the fact YOU HAVEN'T TESTED ANYTHING, and you're making a fool of yourself. You are literally guessing that they don't work. That's it. But you're not stating your opinion as if it were a guess. You impress it as fact upon other people. And for what? It's bullshit, and not scientific in any way. I'd rather go on the opinion of far more reputable tuners with their own businesses doing such who use actual data (not to mention Thorsten, TurnOne and the countless individual users) as opposed to someone (and seemingly the only hardcore skeptic) with an overblown opinion of his tuning credentials. Dude, either test it, or let it go. There's enough bullshit in the world.


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post #59 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 03:49 PM
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Pot calling the kettle black? No. I actually had an open airbox'ed RC. That's a start. Additionally, as stated before, Hord, who's a a trusted source of information and has tuned a shitload of RC51s, says they work. Has dyno charts. Couple that with the fact YOU HAVEN'T TESTED ANYTHING, and you're making a fool of yourself. You are literally guessing that they don't work. That's it. But you're not stating your opinion as if it were a guess. You impress it as fact upon other people. And for what? It's bullshit, and not scientific in any way. I'd rather go on the opinion of far more reputable tuners with their own businesses doing such who use actual data as opposed to someone with an overblown opinion of his tuning credentials. Dude, either test it, or let it go. There's enough bullshit in the world.

If you think a dyno of an airbox mod made in an engine with high compression pistons is going to react the exact same as an engine with stock internals then you go right ahead & sing those praises. Unlike you I have actually done back to back testing in bunch of difference configurations with high compression pistons, airbox mods, lightened flywheels and even the MOTEC system and the only thing that truly improved my bikes performance was the pistons.

Ultimately I do not care what people spend their money on I just want them to be able to make educated decisions. That is why I created RC51.org simply to get the truth out. When people read this thread they can make up their own mind as to what to believe.


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post #60 of 206 (permalink) Old 11-13-2012, 03:54 PM
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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read a dyno chart.

Airbox mounted+no fuel changes: +4 horserpower over baseline bike.

Airbox mounted+new fueling: +7 horsepower over baseline bike.

That's just one dyno from his site. There are more. This is data from which we can draw conclusions. You have no data. Say what you like, but every case is different and in this case you have no experience, much less dyno charts. If you don't care what people spend their money on, stop arguing something that you literally know nothing about, other than in a general sense.


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