Blue smoke in lower rev range - Speedzilla Motorcycle Message Forums
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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 05:53 AM Thread Starter
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Blue smoke in lower rev range

Greetings all,

I have a question on a blue smoke anomaly coming out of the exhaust at about 3000 RPM down to idle, there is no sign of blue smoke on acceleration. This usually happens after bliping the throttle, but doesn't seem to happen on a normal decel. It hasn't done this in the past, its a relatively new occurance. The bike is an 04 with 19000 miles. It hasn't had the valves checked so they could be out of spec. The first thing I checked was the oil level. It was high, I mean above the window high. How this happend I'm not sure of, but I changed the oil and made sure the oil level was between the two lines in the glass window. After draining the oil, it did smell sorta gassy, maybe like gas was in the oil. After the oil change, and running it up to operating temp, the oil level increased again. Strange? I let the bike cool back down, and drained the excess oil. Ran it back up to operating temp for a 2nd time and all seemed well minus the blue smoke. The oil is not milky, so there isn't water getting in there. I'm sorta lost for words on this, except maybe a valve is out of soec or something. Any Ideas or suggestion on what to check??
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 06:48 AM
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The valves being out of adjustment (and I seriously doubt that they are) will not cause blue smoke to appear.

Does the bike only blow this blue smoke when you initially start it from cold? If so, how long does the bike sit? Does it do this when fully warm?

My R6 racebike used to do this, but only from dead cold and only for about 45 seconds. You understand I am not a trained mechanic, so any info I can give you will be just a guess based on very limited information.

You may have a slightly overly-rich fuel mixture when the bike is first started from cold. Are you using the choke from dead cold? I am assuming you do, because I have too even in some warm (for Iowa) spring/fall months. Does your bike have a PowerCommander installed? If so, what map are you using? Is it possible that your map is too rich below 3000rpm? But an overly-rich fuel mixture should cause a sooty, somewhat faint, almost black smoke. Also, what did the oil smell like when you drained it the first time upon noticing this "smoking" problem? Did the oil smell like gasoline?

Or maybe when the bike sits overnight or longer, a very slight amount of oil is leaking past a valve guide into the combustion chamber. A car I had used to do this, and once the engine was warm, the valve seal would expand and no more oil would get past into the cylinder and thus the smoking would stop.

Also, it could be condensation in your pipes (again from dead cold) mixing with carbon that coats the inside of the header/exhaust, and being blown out, turned to steam when exitting the pipes, and also it would not last very long once the condensation has been vaporized by engine exhaust heat.

I wouldn't worry about coolant getting into the engine, because if coolant were getting past the cylinder head into the combustion chamber, you would see a very distinct, almost white smoke coming from your exhaust, and it would have a very distinct, sweet smell as well.

As far as engine oil level goes, I simply go by what the Service Manual says: 4.1 US qts with a filter change. This method always fills it to the proper level, and always stays between the sight-glass lines until its time for the next oil change. Also, engine oil will expand slightly when it is hot, so that may explain the level change when at operating temperature.

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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Does the bike only blow this blue smoke when you initially start it from cold? If so, how long does the bike sit? Does it do this when fully warm?
It does it when it's both warm and cold. I'll double check this tomorrow though.

Quote:
You may have a slightly overly-rich fuel mixture when the bike is first started from cold. Are you using the choke from dead cold? I am assuming you do, because I have too even in some warm (for Iowa) spring/fall months. Does your bike have a PowerCommander installed? If so, what map are you using? Is it possible that your map is too rich below 3000rpm? But an overly-rich fuel mixture should cause a sooty, somewhat faint, almost black smoke. Also, what did the oil smell like when you drained it the first time upon noticing this "smoking" problem? Did the oil smell like gasoline?
I'm using the choke on the first cold start, and the first cold start only for about 30 sec or so. A PowerCommander is installed with I think DK Sato High mounts for the mori high mounts installed. It is a pretty rich map and there is alittle black smoke at the start, but my concern here is oil burn, not fuel related. The oil did smell like Gas..
Quote:
Also, engine oil will expand slightly when it is hot, so that may explain the level change when at operating temperature.
I did consider this. I will double check it in the morning.

The oil did smell like Gasoline. Is there anyway it could be throwing gas into the cylinder and it leak by? Overnight? While running?
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcowboy
...blue smoke anomaly coming out of the exhaust at about 3000 RPM down to idle...
Are you running Satos or Hindles?

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 03:16 PM
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If your oil smells like gas,There's only one way for it to get into your oil,Injectors,Maybe the pressure regulator is stuck open or an inj. is stuck open.


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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 05:07 PM Thread Starter
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Are you running Satos or Hindles?
I'm not using / running either of them..
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rcowboy
I'm not using / running either of them..
Sorry, my contribution to this thread was just to poke fun at the hindle/sato saga in the general section...

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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 11:16 PM
 
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Sounds to me like you may have a leaking injector that is letting fuel into the cylinder when the engine is off. That would account for your extra volume of oil level. It will also "wash down" the cylinder removing the oil and causing friction that could be killing the rings.... :twocents
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 04:43 AM
 
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I just rebuilt a 2000 SP-1 with this same problem........The blue smoke you are talking about....Turned out to be a valve guide seal causing the problem.
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 05:18 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry, my contribution to this thread was just to poke fun at the hindle/sato saga in the general section...
I knew you were.. Thats why I was like.
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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 05:25 AM Thread Starter
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I just rebuilt a 2000 SP-1 with this same problem........The blue smoke you are talking about....Turned out to be a valve guide seal causing the problem.
Thats what I was thinking too.. How much work is involved with that??

I think over the weekend I'm going to pull the plugs and see what they look like, I need to replace them anyways its been awhile since I've changed them. I'm also going to check the airbox and make sure there isn't a puddle of oil in there or something. The breather tubes were empty, they didn't have any oil buildup in them. I wonder if anything in the PAIR system might can cause this. I haven't done this mod, so all of that is still intact.
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcowboy
Thats what I was thinking too.. How much work is involved with that??
If its anything to do with a valve guide you have to remove the cylinder head, and remove the valve/spring/retainer to get to the guide seal. So you pretty much have to disassemble the top end of your motor.
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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 11:06 AM
 
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You can do the guide seals without removing the heads but it takes a couple of special tools. First you need a tool to hold the crank in position with the valves closed on one cylinder. Next you add shop air through the spark plug hole to hold the valve closed. Next you use the special valve spring compressor to remove the valve spring and you have access to the seals......


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke51
If its anything to do with a valve guide you have to remove the cylinder head, and remove the valve/spring/retainer to get to the guide seal. So you pretty much have to disassemble the top end of your motor.
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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 03:00 PM
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Man, using compressed air to hold the valve shut is way too exciting for an old man like me. Why not just feed a length of poly rope into the cylinder through the spark plug hole with the piston a the bottom of the stroke, then crank the piston up with a johnson bar, compressing the poly rope?

This is known as the "rope trick" and is probably older than most of you reading this
I was amazed that no one here knew what blue smoke in the exhaust is ... that's oil, and it's a testament to the durability of our engines that people didn't instantly respond with rings or valves ...

Here's the pdf:

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/supp...ns/SI1425a.pdf

Last edited by canuck51; 12-01-2006 at 06:14 PM.
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 07:27 PM
 
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If an 04 with 19,000 miles that from the sounds of it esn't being used for much more than street duty has come up with some lame valve seals, then I want to know as much as I can about it's care and mods to make sure I don't bring on the same fate to my 03. The oil level sounds a bit high. You are adding the right amount of oil, no doubts there. But are you adding the 4.1 quarts it tells us to, which always slightly overfills the sight glass for some odd reason, or are you adding 4 quarts and calling it good like a lot of us do? Prolonged overfilling of engine oil can cause some oil to get by the piston rings but it takes a lot of overfilling to do that, so I doubt that is the reason. What about the mods? Pipes but no power commander can cause an overly lean issue that can lead to valve guides burning up. Is there a chance that this has happened? Fill us in on what you know about that care and mods of your bike as it will help pin-point the possible culprit and keep others from making the same mistakes (if any were made).
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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:18 PM
 
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Well... let me see... probably don't do that anymore because technology moved on... like the same reason we don't much use drum brakes, hand cranks to start the car, or B&W TVs! Yea... they still do the job... but things got better!

BTW.. I did mention the rings but the root cause is still suspect. I think the injector is fooked!
Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck51
Man, using compressed air to hold the valve shut is way too exciting for an old man like me. Why not just feed a length of poly rope into the cylinder through the spark plug hole with the piston a the bottom of the stroke, then crank the piston up with a johnson bar, compressing the poly rope?

This is known as the "rope trick" and is probably older than most of you reading this
I was amazed that no one here knew what blue smoke in the exhaust is ... that's oil, and it's a testament to the durability of our engines that people didn't instantly respond with rings or valves ...

Here's the pdf:

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/supp...ns/SI1425a.pdf
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by beaugator
Well... let me see... probably don't do that anymore because technology moved on... like the same reason we don't much use drum brakes, hand cranks to start the car, or B&W TVs! Yea... they still do the job... but things got better!

BTW.. I did mention the rings but the root cause is still suspect. I think the injector is fooked!
Do a leakdown test to check rings,I still would check the fuel pressure regulator (vacume hose to it to)If to much fuel pressure is going to the Injectors they will bleed off fuel pressure-Oil smells like gas.I find it hard to believe it would need valve seals at 19k,As long if the bike has had proper maintance.


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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 04:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcowboy
Thats what I was thinking too.. How much work is involved with that??

I think over the weekend I'm going to pull the plugs and see what they look like, I need to replace them anyways its been awhile since I've changed them. I'm also going to check the airbox and make sure there isn't a puddle of oil in there or something. The breather tubes were empty, they didn't have any oil buildup in them. I wonder if anything in the PAIR system might can cause this. I haven't done this mod, so all of that is still intact.
The RC 51 motor is one of the easiest motors to work on. Gear driven cams are awesome to work with. The RC that i rebuilt turned out it was an Exhaust Valve guide seal on the rear cylinder. The rear cylinder is super easy to get off...the front requires a little more work....you have to remove the radiators. Basically its like this: Pull your gas tank and fairings, remove the airbox and throttle bodies...remove the exhaust system. From there you can remove the rear cylinder head. Remove the radiators and hoses and then you can remove the front cyl. head. Having the valve seats cut and cylinder head ports bead blasted, along with replacing the valves will go a long way in restoring any lost performance in your motor.....I know it did in the one I just did. Also, a factory HONDA shop manual will tell you everything you need to know. It is a fun project you can do yourself.
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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 04:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BLU-BY-U
Do a leakdown test to check rings,I still would check the fuel pressure regulator (vacume hose to it to)If to much fuel pressure is going to the Injectors they will bleed off fuel pressure-Oil smells like gas.I find it hard to believe it would need valve seals at 19k,As long if the bike has had proper maintance.
The vacuum hose going to the pressure regulator is a good call also...and easy to check...I have seen a cbr 600 F4I..with that problem...pulled the vacuum line off the regulator and fuel dripped out...that line goes directly into the intake tract...It was causing that cylinder to foul out plugs. It is not usually normal for a valve guide seal to go out at 19,000 miles but it happens.
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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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Okay, Let me try to set the record stright.. Sorry for any Confusion..

The bike in question is a 2004 (Nikey Model) with 19000 miles. The machine is totaly stock except for Mori Pipes and a PowerCommander PCUSBIII. The PAIR system, soft rev, flapper, and gearing mods have not been done. I wanted to keep this bike as stock as possible. Yes, it has the original chain and sprokets, and they have just hit half-life, and I don't believe its seen the soft rev limiter but about 4 times. Some Asshat on a busa thought he was all that, but anyways.. I baby this bike. I pretty much just ride it to and from work, and a weekend ride here and there.

The oil burn is a new occurance, or shall I say i've just noticed it last Saturday when i got home from work. When I first saw the blue smoke, I though to myself, "I should check the oil level". Thats when I noticed it was high. Just as stated above, I typically do the oil change with just 4 quarts, check the level, and call it good. The bike gets proper care. I follow the service intervals as stated, except at the 16,000 mile service I skiped the valve inspection. Coolent has been changed, plugs, brake fluid, clutch, etc...

When I did the oil change (due to the blue smoke) it did have a gasoline type smell to it. Razzzzz me all you want to here, but all I've ran as far as oil in the bike is the HP4/GN4 with out moly honda oil. Its the gold colored bottle 20w50. <---- being that I live in Florida I use the heavy weight oil.

After I did the oil change, I brought the bike back up to operating temp and noticed the the oil level rose again. I figured, due to the heat that maybe the oil had expanded, so I drained some out to bring it back between the line in the glass oil level. Fired it back up to operating temp, and all is well with that. I haven't had the oil level increase since, but I haven't rode the bike after changing the oil concerned that something might me going on.

Thats where it stands for now.. I haven't had any time to mess with it since Tuesday due to it being pretty crazy at work. If I get a chance this weekend, I was going to pull the plugs and go from there..
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