Alot of great comments without name calling. I agree with alot said on both sides. Corruption in politics on either side will continue forever. They should be punished when caught, I agree. Shareholders are not tax payers for corporations, they are risk takers looking for short or long term gain. If 1% of the wealthiest taxpayers pay 30% of income taxes,, isn't that at least their fair share? I think so. Germany's new coallition in power wants to roll baack highest tax rate from 45-35%, less than our 39.6% rate. Socialist countries are moving toward the right of center because people want more of the spoils of their work. They don't want to be filthy rich but want a little better standard of living. I have relatives in Germany. They are happy they have free health care to fall back on but not that their children suffer for specialty care with long waits and dificulty getting advanced care. One died of lyphoma because the delay in getting the chhild to the US for a transplant of bone marrow was too long(so the doctors in Germany stated). One died of head injury because they had to travel too far for a cat scan and neurosurgeon. Every county in the US has cat scan and MRI by medicare rule.
Point is Americans do not want health care for all at a leasened quality for all, and those who would be happy with free health care because they cannot pay would never except a different level of quality. That's un-american correct.
There are over 1 million millionaires in the US. Most self made millionaires are indeed small business owners who work very very hard. They are also huge suppliers of jobs and benefits. More taxes means layoffs and more hours worked for them. This is reality. We drive our largest corporations to become multinational in large part to make more profit on less foreign corporate tax paid. Again, every reduction in taxes in the last 50 years has brought more money to the treasury. Fact. Liberals know this but won't get their heads around the idea that this is better. If we regulate small business more, they will stay smaller.
What is the minimum wage value for a hamburger flipper? Minimum wage is for unskilled labor. How much sskill is really involved in production line work? Too much apparently because US manufacturing cannot afford labor(including those that make good products).
Gog, I don''t know why people do not like nature more. That's why we need more nuclear energy. All that white stuff coming out is water after all and waste disposal is quite safe(stuff happens but that is the exception correct). Doyou mind if we send you 10 million Mexican illegal aliens? See how everyone feels about segregation and tolerance and free health care when they have the same problems we do?
By American standards of success, many in European socialist countries would be considered lower class by virtue of the cars they drive and homes they live in and size of property. Not saying this should be right.
Most of the redneck farmers and such may seem poor but many are content and would not trade a tough low income farm job for a Napa Valley lifestyle ever. Many a farmer is a land sale away from being a millionaire but would rather struggle than give up their chosen life. I am proud of these people more so lawyers and bankers any day.
How about we talk flat tax or something. You know when everybody pays their fare share no exemptions no excuses,whether you pay a billion or 100 bucks, at least you pay type of system. Sounds positively fair. Or how about a good socialist European or Canadian VAT-value added tax. Maybe like 15-20% on everything like Germany. A hundred dollar pair of sneakers won't seem so good any more when it's 120 bucks.
What you are getting wrong with the tax debate< at least what I think you are getting wrong is that the top 1% may end up paying for 30% of the taxes collected but they do not pay 30% tax on their money!!! They pay for the politicians at fundraisers and they get the tax breaks they tell the politicians to put in effect! I will crap my pants if we ever get to a FAIR tax system or a flat tax rate with no deductions!!!
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"Your out of your element Donnie"
I think the fact that 1% pay 30% and 10% pay 70% of the total should speak for itself. I do not think that many Americans would begrudge the "wealthy" if they could putthe facts in perspective. People especially married with children with a home mortgage and child tax credit and IRA deductions, etc. who make less than lets say $175000 pay on the order of 10-15% federal income taxes. Obviously this does not apply to singles who get the shaft under our tax laws. If you made 100 million and paid effectively 39.6% highest rate, where would they get 10 million in deductions to pay any less than 30% or so, which would be 30 million,, which is more than 280 million Americans would pay in a lifetime. That's perspective. I am not rich, I am in the military working for 25 cents on the dollar of my civillian counterpartswith five kids and a dog to feed. I still do not begrudge those more fortunate or inventive or harder working than me their wealth, but that comes down to my values as a citizen of this country. Maybe the display of wealth is sometimes gaudy, but I would say that that drive and inventiveness and hard work is what made my country great by my measure. While we can do better as a society especially in family cohesiveness and values and better education, the socialist changes sought by our government now will stifleinovation and work ethic. People who are millionaires almost invariably don't think of themselves as rich per se but they work harder than others because that's who they are. Read about people like Sam Walton and complain about Walmart all you want, but you will find it hard to not respect the kind of worker he was.
We begrudge giant corporations like Exxon, Walmart, Microsoft, etc. yet they provide millions of jobs and 100's of billions in taxes that corrupted politicians squander on pork and pet projects. They steal from Social Security with IOU's and print money like some third world nation when it suites them and then say it will only cost 1 trillion or so for medical care. I live on a budget for Christ's sake. I pay my taxes. I buy lots of crap to stimulate the economy(I buy Hondas made in Ohio even). I want health care for everyone too, I just think they need to balance the budget while doing it. Maybe all those people who want 3+ thousand dollars worth of health insurance gratis could do 2 or 3 weeks worth of community service or ditch digging or building roads to fvucking earn it. Weekend work is okay by me. Try getting them to appreciate the benefits then.
You may think you want what Canada or Europe has to offer but maybe you are being selective and choosing just the 1 or 2 most expensive things, because if you get a brain tumor, I really do not think you want to wait 3-4 months to see a neurosurgeon just to say you got it free.
if you get a brain tumor, I really do not think you want to wait 3-4 months to see a neurosurgeon just to say you got it free.
That's not a correct description of what happens in Canada. That's the FUX version. Only elective surgeries lead to long waits - sometimes as long as 8 months, I've heard. A brain tumor is a completely different situation, though there may be some types of brain tumors that timely removal would make no difference in, so for those there may be a longer wait. Maybe FUX found one of those and latched onto it...and repeated it over and over until every idiot that watched that channel believed that Canada sucked, which it doesn't.
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
That's not a correct description of what happens in Canada. That's the FUX version. Only elective surgeries lead to long waits - sometimes as long as 8 months, I've heard. A brain tumor is a completely different situation.
A good friend of mine lost his mother to breast cancer 2 months ago on a wait list...she was 72 years old. That was in Toronto. No ideas on the whole situation except for those two facts.
Okay, here it comes, a deluge of tall tales and inuendo, decades worth of isolated incidents. Perhaps we should list all the tools left in abdomens here in the U.S., or the wrong amputations. And perhaps we should accuse the for-profit system that moves people through like cattle for causing that. The point is that wait lists in Canada are for elective surgeries, period.
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
Okay, here it comes, a deluge of tall tales and inuendo, decades worth of isolated incidents. Perhaps we should list all the tools left in abdomens here in the U.S., or the wrong amputations. And perhaps we should accuse the for-profit system that moves people through like cattle for causing that. The point is that wait lists in Canada are for elective surgeries, period.
Not at all, but the press will show isolated incidents from both sides and sometimes, personal experience shapes the view.
Think about what you said: "tools left in abdomens" and "wrong amputations" are not the fault of the current system. They're mistakes by surgeons.
What constitutes an elective surgery? If I tear my achilles, is that elective?
By American standards of success, many in European socialist countries would be considered lower class by virtue of the cars they drive and homes they live in and size of property. Not saying this should be right.
Most of the redneck farmers and such may seem poor but many are content and would not trade a tough low income farm job for a Napa Valley lifestyle ever. Many a farmer is a land sale away from being a millionaire but would rather struggle than give up their chosen life. I am proud of these people more so lawyers and bankers any day.
Didn't have time to read your whole post. But...
They drive small cars because A., the streets are narrow, B., Parking is tight, and C., the cost of fuel is extreemly high. But I don't believe C because they all have the pedal to the metal in many of those countries - it's like a F1 sprint from light to light. Plus, having driven over there twice I wouldn't want a big car. It's just so much easier to negotiate those cities in something small, like a micro Nissan. Your logic is flawed. Things are small over there because there is less real estate, not because there is less wealth. Stop thinking inside the box.
I completely agree with paragraph two. And I don't live the Napa Valley lifestyle. Tourists do. I get out of here almost ever weekend.
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
Think about what you said: "tools left in abdomens" and "wrong amputations" are not the fault of the current system. They're mistakes by surgeons.
What constitutes an elective surgery? If I tear my achilles, is that elective?
Yeah, mistakes by people who are overworked and under pressure to prop up the bottom line. That is the current system.
Ask Gog or someone else from Canada. Better yet, talk to someone who knows . Sorry Gag .
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
Alot of great comments without name calling. I agree with alot said on both sides. +1
Gog, I don''t know why people do not like nature more. That's why we need more nuclear energy. All that white stuff coming out is water after all and waste disposal is quite safe(stuff happens but that is the exception correct). Doyou mind if we send you 10 million Mexican illegal aliens? See how everyone feels about segregation and tolerance and free health care when they have the same problems we do?
I know how frustrating the illegals can be. I was cursing them, on more than one occasion in L.A. Throwing diapers out the windows of shit cars and hissing at the women on the street etc. Gum on the sidewalk..lol! I was fit to be tied quite a few times.
By American standards of success, many in European socialist countries would be considered lower class by virtue of the cars they drive and homes they live in and size of property. Not saying this should be right.
Most of the redneck farmers and such may seem poor but many are content and would not trade a tough low income farm job for a Napa Valley lifestyle ever. Many a farmer is a land sale away from being a millionaire but would rather struggle than give up their chosen life. I am proud of these people more so lawyers and bankers any day.
Me too.
How about we talk flat tax or something. You know when everybody pays their fare share no exemptions no excuses,whether you pay a billion or 100 bucks, at least you pay type of system. Sounds positively fair. Or how about a good socialist European or Canadian VAT-value added tax. Maybe like 15-20% on everything like Germany. A hundred dollar pair of sneakers won't seem so good any more when it's 120 bucks.
I love the idea of a flat tax. There are so many people working for tax related jobs, inside and outside government, that I fear they will block anything that is attempted. I remember Jerry Brown and all the laughing that was directed his way. He said something about filling your taxes on a postcard, dead simple. I like the idea of less complicated tax, more transparency and more enforcement.
As far as this thread's original intentions...I think we all know there are perverts and scumbags on all sides of politic, party and philosophy. I get miffed when someone says their specialy is NOT being perverted and they turn out to be VERY perverted. I hold people who "swear"into their jobs at higher standarsd too! Cops, doctors, lawyers, priests, politicians etc.
Area 51 I have to disagree about my logic being flawed. I myself don't think Europeans as a majority are lower class based on perceptions because I look at it from their perspective when I make my judgements. The high taxes and high cost of living force them into the choices(majority). My logic is not flawed because by the AMERICAN STANDARD they have a lower standard of living. A lexus IS250/350 is a compact car by my standard, no more leg room than a Civic, yet here we can have one for 32-42000 depending on goodies. In Germany, my Aunt who works for a car import company stated they are up to double that. Tariffs suck and are unfair to US and Japanese/Korean companies yet we let it happen. They don't want to buy our beef either. Lots of excuses. Point is, less competition=higher price=lower standard of living.
Last edited by twin-nut; 10-01-2009 at 06:58 AM.
Reason: n
From a crashaholic's POV(30 years of crashing some form of vehicle) in Canada... rock climbing, mountain biking, rollerblading, surfing blah blah, the healthcare system is amazing. I havent had a tumor yet..eeek, but enough trips to emergency to make me feel guilty about how much I pay vs. how much I use. If I get sick from something other than stitches, broken bones and concussions, I am sure that I would get some pretty amazing healthcare. Especially with the little extra coverage I have. I know most people are very happy and super protective of healthcare. We view it as a standard that cannot fall, or else.
I was struck by lightening a few years ago. That is a classic case of wrong place at the wrong time. I was in northern Canada in an extremely remote location. A jet helicopter was dispatched, it came and got me, flew me to a very nice hospital and they nursed me back to health... wow. Of all the treatments for accidents I have had, this one was the most amazing because I wasnt doing anything dangerous at the time and received A1, first class medical attention and recovered 100%. The bill? I didnt get a bill. My life in my home, business and employment? It went on without me having to give up my home, become a working poor stiff or live my life only partially recovered.
I take pretty good care of myself physically. Lots of amazing food and no drinking, smoking. I dont go to emergency unless it damn well is an emergency however... Isnt my dangerous lifestyle equivalent to someone who is eating poorly, not taking safety precautions and never exercising? Both cost the collective more than it would if we stayed home, safe, and did nothing but eat and exercise in safety. Is my coverage allowing me to act dangerously? Prolly...ouch. Healthcare needs to be there, no matter what. Better run it well or it will run itself into the ground.
I have heard stories of bad service and wait times but not many. We cherish our healthcare in a way that socialized countries cherish the systems that are in place to take care of the rich, poor, smart, stupid, lucky and unlucky. It just is. I grew up with this so I want to not vote for anyone who threatens it. I want healthcare and I dont want sick neighbors. I want the system to be smart and efficient, not outrageous and corrupt.
Coming from such a wealthy country, with extensive infrastructure, I find it hard to complain about healthcare unless it's to do with waste, incompetence or fraud. We need good management and need to deep fry anyone caught stealing or defrauding the system. If you're sick, you're sick. If you're lazy, you're an unfortunate slob and if you're defrauding, you're time is gonna come.
From a crashaholic's POV(30 years of crashing some form of vehicle) in Canada... rock climbing, mountain biking, rollerblading, surfing blah blah, the healthcare system is amazing. I havent had a tumor yet..eeek, but enough trips to emergency to make me feel guilty about how much I pay vs. how much I use. If I get sick from something other than stitches, broken bones and concussions, I am sure that I would get some pretty amazing healthcare. Especially with the little extra coverage I have. I know most people are very happy and super protective of healthcare. We view it as a standard that cannot fall, or else.
We don't have to worry about paying in Emergency Rooms if we don't have insurance. Moot point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gog
Coming from such a wealthy country, with extensive infrastructure, I find it hard to complain about healthcare unless it's to do with waste, incompetence or fraud. We need good management and need to deep fry anyone caught stealing or defrauding the system. If you're sick, you're sick. If you're lazy, you're an unfortunate slob and if you're defrauding, you're time is gonna come.
I agree. And our system here in the States is fine. It's the abuse that needs to be taken care of and the first step is tort reform, which the government doesn't want to touch because they're in bed with lawyers.
Being in bed with lawyers is only part of the tale. Dont forget, your current healthcare system takes a $350 dollar wheelchair, runs it through "the system" and voilą: a $3500 wheelchair. It aint just lawyers doing this. It's an entrenched dysfunction and a trough for the bottom feeders of all sorts.
Being in bed with lawyers is only part of the tale. Dont forget, your current healthcare system takes a $350 dollar wheelchair, runs it through "the system" and voilą: a $3500 wheelchair. It aint just lawyers doing this. It's an entrenched dysfunction and a trough for the bottom feeders of all sorts.
Cite that one please..
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Quotes From Turd Burglar 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Area 51
I'm fifty and ride a sport bike. I guess I'm a tool too - just like you, bros. Got a few hunting guns too.
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Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson
Can't say for sure but I suspect Rand Paul is an ass.
Pot and Kettle..together forever. Hypocrisy knows no boundaries..
Quote:
Originally Posted by nero
IQ51 still fits, i see...
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The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.
Just some documentary I saw last year. They were trying to explain how the final cost ended up 4 - 10 times higher than just buying it. Turns out 'everyone" seemed to want it to stay as it was.
I'm too lazy today to follow up on that.
Just some documentary I saw last year. They were trying to explain how the final cost ended up 4 - 10 times higher than just buying it. Turns out 'everyone" seemed to want it to stay as it was.
I'm too lazy today to follow up on that.
I stated tort reform was a starting point. Considering that hospitals write off about $8mil a year, things get inflated. There are definitely things that need to be fixed, but an overhaul? I don't think so.
Fortunately Canada does not face the immigration issues we do which affect our healthcare. Healthcare is very expensive for those businesses and individuals who pay because there are simply too many who don't pay and the government does not foot that bill enough therefore hospitals have to write off and charge more. Gog you have obviously had good experiences and I think that is great and you will continue to have good experience especially while healthy. Acute care is easy, not cheap but easy. Chronic care is expensivve. It's the care that eldely get in the last 90-180 days of life that really cripples the system. I put the blame asmuch on the patients themselves as the doctors treating them. People refuse to say no to treatment and doctors here are considered negligent if they don't do way more than is necessary or reasonable given the health care situation in general.
We don't have to worry about paying in Emergency Rooms if we don't have insurance.
We? So you're illegal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G8RDuc
I agree. And our system here in the States is fine. It's the abuse that needs to be taken care of and the first step is tort reform, which the government doesn't want to touch because they're in bed with lawyers.
I highly doubt that. I've heard that malpractice litigation amounts to only around 3% of medical costs. It's another red herring from the right.
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
I highly doubt that. I've heard that malpractice litigation amounts to only around 3% of medical costs. It's another red herring from the right.
1) Don't start your BS. ANYONE in the US that goes to an ER and doesn't have insurance still gets treatment by LAW.
2) Don't doubt it. My wife's boss pays over $300k a year in malpractice insurance. There's a local doctor that is a friend that pays over $800k. Just because YOU don't know the fact, don't think it's just made up from people on the opposite spectrum.
By American standards of success, many in European socialist countries would be considered lower class by virtue of the cars they drive and homes they live in and size of property. Not saying this should be right.
Most of the redneck farmers and such may seem poor but many are content and would not trade a tough low income farm job for a Napa Valley lifestyle ever. Many a farmer is a land sale away from being a millionaire but would rather struggle than give up their chosen life. I am proud of these people more so lawyers and bankers any day.
You're probably not aware of it but you just contradicted yourself. On the one hand you criticize the living standards of Euro's for living simple. On the other hand you commend American's in basically the same position. The song remains the same, "we're the greatest country on earth", no matter what the actual circumstances.
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
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) in Canada... rock climbing, mountain biking, rollerblading, surfing blah blah, the healthcare system is amazing. I havent had a tumor yet..eeek, but enough trips to emergency to make me feel guilty about how much I pay vs. how much I use. If I get sick from something other than stitches, broken bones and concussions, I am sure that I would get some pretty amazing healthcare. Especially with the little extra coverage I have. I know most people are very happy and super protective of healthcare. We view it as a standard that cannot fall, or else. 
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