Healthcare Reform

[Baasinator]

Let's pretend that we don't already know that our government is not capable of efficiently managing and improving a system as complex as American healthcare. Let's just look at recent history. As far as government handouts go, "Cash For Clunkers" is about as simple as a program can be, right? And yet the government has proven unable to implement even this! And after failing to run the program in an acceptable manner, they decided to expand it!

Seriously? We want to hand over the healthcare system to them? They can't handle a few hundred thousand transactions that essentially contain three or four inputs and one output, but we think they can manage an industry with millions of participants and millions of variables? A business that literally deals in life and death?

Some car dealers have stopped participating in the program because they are out of cash and they don't know when or if they'll be repaid by the government. No big deal -- nobody is dying over it -- but people who might like to participate in the program are being denied the opportunity because the government cannot manage it properly. Now imagine we're talking about hospitals instead of car dealerships.

When Obama is off-teleprompter, he has shown that he doesn't understand the principles or the details of this plan he is trying to sell us. Why would we listen to these people and just hope they might get it right this time, especially when so much is on the line?

My question is this: why is most of Washington hell-bent on reforming and destroying a system that essentially works, instead of taking some simple common-sense measures to address problems that do exist with the current system? For example, why can't we start with John Mackey's ideas and go from there?
John Mackey: The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare - WSJ.com



** Yes, I know the evil Journal edited his piece (as they do with every op-ed). I didn't see any big differences, but his original piece is on his blog if you care:
The CEO’s Blog

[nero]

You want my "banda-esque" , boiled down to base element idea ?
POWER GRAB.

It's all about controlling the vote, getting people hooked on govcash.

[cutter]

Originally Posted by Baasinator

Let's pretend that we don't already know that our government is not capable of efficiently managing and improving a system as complex as American healthcare. Let's just look at recent history. As far as government handouts go, "Cash For Clunkers" is about as simple as a program can be, right? And yet the government has proven unable to implement even this! And after failing to run the program in an acceptable manner, they decided to expand it!

Seriously? We want to hand over the healthcare system to them? They can't handle a few hundred thousand transactions that essentially contain three or four inputs and one output, but we think they can manage an industry with millions of participants and millions of variables? A business that literally deals in life and death?

Some car dealers have stopped participating in the program because they are out of cash and they don't know when or if they'll be repaid by the government. No big deal -- nobody is dying over it -- but people who might like to participate in the program are being denied the opportunity because the government cannot manage it properly. Now imagine we're talking about hospitals instead of car dealerships.

When Obama is off-teleprompter, he has shown that he doesn't understand the principles or the details of this plan he is trying to sell us. Why would we listen to these people and just hope they might get it right this time, especially when so much is on the line?

My question is this: why is most of Washington hell-bent on reforming and destroying a system that essentially works, instead of taking some simple common-sense measures to address problems that do exist with the current system? For example, why can't we start with John Mackey's ideas and go from there?
John Mackey: The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare - WSJ.com



** Yes, I know the evil Journal edited his piece (as they do with every op-ed). I didn't see any big differences, but his original piece is on his blog if you care:
The CEO’s Blog

In Obamas defense, being asked about a very specific piece of a very large document and have him know it off the top of his head is a little unreasonable, he didn't even ignore the question, just needed a little time to consult before answering it.
Most of these town hall meetings are nothing but slander attacks by pissed off republicans that are mad they lost the presidency, house, and senate.

Back on topic, that link you posted had some very good ideas, some of them extremely optimistic, like expecting that people will all become health nuts.
It would more likely that everyone in the world would just get along with each other.

Or insurance companies letting go of their stacked monopoly and stop dropping insured people when they get sick, or expecting people to give to a sick charity when they already pay for medicare out of their checks.

Not to mention that there is no plan to get the drug companies to let go of the death grip they have everyone's balls in with their monopoly locked system pushing highly inflated prices.

The government is the only entity that can put competition in this market, and make the insurance companies play fair, for better or worse, and the insurance companies are subsidized by the government already, the only thing is they decide what to do with that tax payer money, could be to help you out, or it could mean a company Lear jet and Cuban cigars...

And this "overburden with rules and regulations" angle is laughable, because these rules and regulations that jack up health care prices are what keep you from getting a rusty nail in your broken leg instead of a titanium one.

Sure you can save a lot of money by going cheap, a car battery and some salt water instead of a defibrillator, just cutting open someones head to see if there is anything wrong instead of MRI's...
Having any joe blow with a tool shed , a medical Haynes manual,and a bottle of rubbing alcohol be a surgeon.

Those are those pesky rules insurance companies have to play by, and they do cost more, but it isn't a real good alternative to take those rules out.
As far as what is covered is a slippery slope, if John Doe didn't want cancer insurance, and gets cancer and 9999 times out of 10000 can't afford treatment, who do you think will foot the bill?
Tax payers.

Frivolous lawsuits are a fraction of health costs, though notable.
I do agree that someone that gets a scar from heart surgery isn't entitled to millions of dollars for mental stress, but I also agree that if a surgeon leaves a scalpel in someones chest, or amputates the wrong leg, they get compensated at least enough to adjust to their new life path resulting from the negligent actions of the hospital.

Now for the pros...
Medical price transparency, this is something I strongly agree with, with a deductible system people will look online and price check different hospitals, and read patient comments on the hospital they find the best price from, this would be huge price savings, getting the hospitals to compete for your business, and the customer reviews will bring a lot of incentive to improve bedside treatment as well.
Now the doctor you been waiting to see for 3 hours that was just sitting in the nurses lounge watching TV as your infant daughter is dangerously dehydrated from diarrhea(happened to me before) would be boldly displayed with name of doctor and hospital.

No more fudging numbers, no more $600 ace bandages ect. ect.

Not only would this help everyone, it will lower insurance prices when it becomes standard practice to find the best deals pre deductible, and if it carries past the deductible you would have unwittingly have chosen a cheaper hospital for the insurance company as well.


Tax deductible health insurance for individuals is another great idea.

I'm not sure about the medicare reform, it is a broad statement that can swing in a disastrous way for people that are on it, depending heavily on what the reform entails I guess.

[RockyMt]

Don't know 'bout you, but choosing the "cheapest" doctor or hospital has never been a priority, sorta like choosing the cheapest helmet.........

-Rocky-

[G8RDuc]

Not sure I agree with you on all points, Cutter.

Frivolous lawsuits are a big part of a practice's budget. The insurance required to carry by some doctors can total over $500k a year. One particular doctor I know is one of a few spinal surgery doctors and his malpractice insurance alone was over $800k.

I do agree that pharmaceutical companies charge too much, but the regulations placed on them are just crazy. Everyone wanted pills from Canada because they're cheaper, but no one bothers to think about the regulations put on our companies that make them charge what they do.

I think most of us would agree, instead of reforming the system, let's fix what needs to be fixed and leave well enough alone. We have one of the best life expectancy rates in the world, we discover more cures then any other country, we DO have free insurance if you goto the ER and have no coverage. Why do we feel the need to overhaul the whole thing?

Our government has proven it can't handle their current health programs, they're abuse on a daily basis (medicare, workmans comp, etc) and all of the other programs that it tries to run (how in the world can the Post Office be losing money? Poor management...). Why do they think they can run something as important as health care?

[cutter]

Originally Posted by G8RDuc

Not sure I agree with you on all points, Cutter.

Frivolous lawsuits are a big part of a practice's budget. The insurance required to carry by some doctors can total over $500k a year. One particular doctor I know is one of a few spinal surgery doctors and his malpractice insurance alone was over $800k.

I do agree that pharmaceutical companies charge too much, but the regulations placed on them are just crazy. Everyone wanted pills from Canada because they're cheaper, but no one bothers to think about the regulations put on our companies that make them charge what they do.

I think most of us would agree, instead of reforming the system, let's fix what needs to be fixed and leave well enough alone. We have one of the best life expectancy rates in the world, we discover more cures then any other country, we DO have free insurance if you goto the ER and have no coverage. Why do we feel the need to overhaul the whole thing?

Our government has proven it can't handle their current health programs, they're abuse on a daily basis (medicare, workmans comp, etc) and all of the other programs that it tries to run (how in the world can the Post Office be losing money? Poor management...). Why do they think they can run something as important as health care?

Well the way the current health care system is ran, it will become more and more unattainable for more and more people, so instead of cheap preventive maintenance, they wait until the pain gets extreme and end up needing a pound of cure, in a emergency room, then tax payers foot the bill once again, in a broken system.
It's like people not affording a fairly cheap oil change, so they wait until the oil becomes sludge and seizes the motor, now they go to the overpriced 24 hour mechanic to get it rebuilt.

We need to keep people from going to the emergency room for care that can be handled by a doctors visit.

We spend more to maintain a broken system, then it would cost for a public option.
Though we do need to have a deductible for health care, maybe a swinging deductible to make it attainable for different income families, so it doesn't become a same out of reach scenario, but it will also distract from people abusing it.

Also setting up a home care guide on what to look for, and simple treatments for common ailments, and warning signs as to when to come in.

No point in seeing a real doctor in a expensive hospital for a cold, sprained ankle, cracked rib, when all you need is some pain medication and a bandage, set up those minute clinics to handle those matters.
Subsidize free yearly physicals for everyone, that should distract people from letting something go to far without it being looked at.

If this system doesn't need reform, it sure does need a frame off restoration.

[G8RDuc]

I don't think you can honestly say that people would do that. People know what to look for now and they still don't take care of themselves. Look how obese the population is getting. People ignore ailments, more because of inconvenience, afraid of the truth then they do because of money. When over 80% of the population has health insurance and yet, they still don't use it, I don't think it's the systems fault.

How many men do you know go for their prostate exams?

Originally Posted by cutter

Also setting up a home care guide on what to look for, and simple treatments for common ailments, and warning signs as to when to come in.

[cutter]

Originally Posted by G8RDuc

I don't think you can honestly say that people would do that. People know what to look for now and they still don't take care of themselves. Look how obese the population is getting. People ignore ailments, more because of inconvenience, afraid of the truth then they do because of money. When over 80% of the population has health insurance and yet, they still don't use it, I don't think it's the systems fault.

How many men do you know go for their prostate exams?

I agree that is a problem, as far as prostate exams go, I used to do work for a guy that got one done a couple months ago, they ended up ripping his colon...

No point made, just thought I would share that story.

[G8RDuc]

Ugh....I think I just cried for your friend...

Originally Posted by cutter

I agree that is a problem, as far as prostate exams go, I used to do work for a guy that got one done a couple months ago, they ended up ripping his colon...

No point made, just thought I would share that story.

[RockyMt]

Not to hi-jack a relavant thread, but it's important enough to; a few years ago I went in for my "50 year old scope" like a good dad, I was in "perfect health" from all the previous tests. After the scope, the doctor invited me and my wife into his office, closed the door, and proceeded to tell me I had "18 months, with luck, surgery and heavy chemo........". It was a little disconcerting to say the least. Long story short, it turned out to be a large NON MALIGNANT tumor in my colon that showed ZERO SYMPTOMS to me. "Thats the way they all are" said the doctor, by the time colon cancer shows a physical symptom, it's ALWAYS too late. After surgery (3 days in the hospitol, $140,000 later, thank God for good private health insurance!) I'm good as new (they just removed the growth, none of the colon) with a newfound outlook on life. Having someone tell you calmly that you have a little over a year to live, with the last half being a living hell of surgery and chemo has a way of sharpening your focus. Rocky has no more "bad days", they call today "the present" because every day is truly a gift! Anyway, the point I was trying to make here is;
IF YOU ARE 50 OR OLDER, GET YOUR SCOPE DONE SOON! (it is a very simple, totally painless exam that takes a few minutes and WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE!) Colon cancer is a very slow progressing disease, and if caught early enough it is over 90% CUREABLE! But if you wait and let it progress for years, by the time you start showing some type of symptom, yer toast.... I would have put mine off for years if it wasn't for the specter of my wife ragging on me to get it done. If not for yourself, do it for the ones you love! (End of lecture/rant, resume normal behavior........

-Rocky-

PS. this story begs the question; what would my treatment options have been if Uncle Sam was footing the tab? Would they still have been willing to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to give me another year.......?

[G8RDuc]

Glad you're still with us, Rock.

Originally Posted by RockyMt

Not to hi-jack a relavant thread, but it's important enough to; a few years ago I went in for my "50 year old scope" like a good dad, I was in "perfect health" from all the previous tests. After the scope, the doctor invited me and my wife into his office, closed the door, and proceeded to tell me I had "18 months, with luck, surgery and heavy chemo........". It was a little disconcerting to say the least. Long story short, it turned out to be a large NON MALIGNANT tumor in my colon that showed ZERO SYMPTOMS to me. "Thats the way they all are" said the doctor, by the time colon cancer shows a physical symptom, it's ALWAYS too late. After surgery (3 days in the hospitol, $140,000 later, thank God for good private health insurance!) I'm good as new (they just removed the growth, none of the colon) with a newfound outlook on life. Having someone tell you calmly that you have a little over a year to live, with the last half being a living hell of surgery and chemo has a way of sharpening your focus. Rocky has no more "bad days", they call today "the present" because every day is truly a gift! Anyway, the point I was trying to make here is;
IF YOU ARE 50 OR OLDER, GET YOUR SCOPE DONE SOON! (it is a very simple, totally painless exam that takes a few minutes and WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE!) Colon cancer is a very slow progressing disease, and if caught early enough it is over 90% CUREABLE! But if you wait and let it progress for years, by the time you start showing some type of symptom, yer toast.... I would have put mine off for years if it wasn't for the specter of my wife ragging on me to get it done. If not for yourself, do it for the ones you love! (End of lecture/rant, resume normal behavior........

-Rocky-

PS. this story begs the question; what would my treatment options have been if Uncle Sam was footing the tab? Would they still have been willing to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to give me another year.......?

[RockyMt]

My kids call me the "terminator" I've jacked myself up soooo much over the years my doctor wants me to donate my tired ass to science fiction!

-Rocky-

PS. like they say, "the good die young".....I guess I'll live forever!

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

-Rocky-

PS. like they say, "the good die young".....I guess I'll live forever!

Correction. The young die because they were drunk and got in a car crash...or they were out at 3am after clubbing and got knifed.

Okay, here is the link to a Frontline story about how other countries deal with health care. If you're opinionated about health care and you haven't seen this story...keep your mouth shut.

The thing I find interesting is that here we have a bunch of "can't do's" (Beuhner comes to mind) who always complain about waste and excess administration. Yet, come to find out, our system, relative to other developed countries, is a system built on waste. Administrative costs here are about 22%. Most other countries are in the single digits. In the stock brokerage business, that's called churning. The more papers they push, the more they can charge. It's a racket, designed by the insurance companies, propped up by donation-grabbing politicians. A transfer of wealth from the average Joe to the executive class (big contributors). Isn't it obvious that "government takover" is a ruse? Keep your ears open because there is a figure mentioned... Something like x00,000 people go bankrupt in America each year because of health costs. That does not happen in successful countries. Some of those interviewed couldn't believe we were so stupid or backward. Kinda makes me wonder about people who keep calling this the "best country". It is so debatable.

Enjoy:

FRONTLINE: sick around the world | PBS

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

Not to hi-jack a relavant thread, but it's important enough to; a few years ago I went in for my "50 year old scope" like a good dad, I was in "perfect health" from all the previous tests. After the scope, the doctor invited me and my wife into his office, closed the door, and proceeded to tell me I had "18 months, with luck, surgery and heavy chemo........". It was a little disconcerting to say the least. Long story short, it turned out to be a large NON MALIGNANT tumor in my colon that showed ZERO SYMPTOMS to me. "Thats the way they all are" said the doctor, by the time colon cancer shows a physical symptom, it's ALWAYS too late. After surgery (3 days in the hospitol, $140,000 later, thank God for good private health insurance!) I'm good as new (they just removed the growth, none of the colon) with a newfound outlook on life. Having someone tell you calmly that you have a little over a year to live, with the last half being a living hell of surgery and chemo has a way of sharpening your focus. Rocky has no more "bad days", they call today "the present" because every day is truly a gift! Anyway, the point I was trying to make here is;
IF YOU ARE 50 OR OLDER, GET YOUR SCOPE DONE SOON! (it is a very simple, totally painless exam that takes a few minutes and WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE!) Colon cancer is a very slow progressing disease, and if caught early enough it is over 90% CUREABLE! But if you wait and let it progress for years, by the time you start showing some type of symptom, yer toast.... I would have put mine off for years if it wasn't for the specter of my wife ragging on me to get it done. If not for yourself, do it for the ones you love! (End of lecture/rant, resume normal behavior........

-Rocky-

PS. this story begs the question; what would my treatment options have been if Uncle Sam was footing the tab? Would they still have been willing to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to give me another year.......?

Chit. I'm fifty. You've convinced me to get may ass violated. Think I'll get loaded before I go.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Area 51

Chit. I'm fifty. You've convinced me to get may ass violated. Think I'll get loaded before I go.

Look at this gem..........puhhhhlease bro, stop with the act, you've been getting your ass violated since the '60's......flowerboy.

[XFBO]

Hey, question for all the french commies/UHC supporters/socialists........why has french rocker James Halliday come to the USA healthcare to be repaired, so to speak?
Such an advanced country like France with their socialistic HC can surely provide 1000% better product than our broken system?

[zippy]

Was he told it was the best place for colon surgery because of the number of asspilots you have?

[Le Kiwi]

Originally Posted by zippy

Was he told it was the best place for colon surgery because of the number of asspilots you have?

Yup.

Actually, no.
Well...maybe...

It's because he lives in Hollywood, and he went home after surgery here in France, but according to the doctors, he tried to do too much, too soon, and relapsed.
He's no spring chicken, and he's got an infection after his operation at a private clinic (doh !) in Paris renowned for delicate spinal operations for a slipped disc.

If only he had used the wonderful "socialist" public hospitals (where the health of the patient is the priority...) instead of the corner-cutting, profit orientated sleaze of the private sector !

France24 - Hallyday producer says French spine operation was 'botched'

[XFBO]

Uh yea, that's it.

[Area 51]

^
Another neo-con rush to judgement bites the dust.