Healthcare Reform

[BC999S]

Originally Posted by nero

Ok. so that was a hyperbolic statement. Are you saying that Canada's system is better than ours ?

Lets try and not put words in my mouth. It all depends on perspective. For many who cannot afford or who have been denied health insurance in the USA, I'm sure they think the medical systems of every other western nation is "better".

Personally, I think a combination of public and private would likely be the best. But it seems that many individuals think of medical coverage as a competition: an "ours is best 'cause we came up with it" position. Which is unfortunate. And Area51 accurately explained the reason a certain bombastic premier of ours went south for an operation.

I have access to the health care systems in both the US and Canada so I may be in a good position to give an objective opinion. I have only used the system in Canada. As I have posted here before: Two ambulance rides, a day in the ICU, multiple x-rays and a sonagram, and a 10 day stay in a private room before I was released. Total cost: $ Free.

Carry on.

[Gog]

Comparisons can be interesting however....

You'd be hard pressed to get a Canadian to fly to the US for gall bladder surgery ATM.... He'd have to be given a 'get out of death panel' pass....

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Area 51

But it's the cost, the inneficiency, and the unaffordability that is the problem.

None of which will be addressed with this bill.

I never thought or said this system doesn't need fixing, but the entire wheel doesn't need to be reinvented either, like this bill proposes.

All I want from these political whack jobs is to fix the KEY areas that American workers want addressed.....ie. being dropped, being denied coverage, fairly priced hc plans, the working person losing their home, etc......

What I do NOT want is another entitlement program for the leeches of society. Have you even noticed that your weekly salary has gone down this yr? Mine has gone down roughly $150/month and I made ZERO changes for the yr. And we haven't got hit over the head yet with this bill.

This HC Bill will be another disastrous program just like SS and Medicaid.....one's running out of funds and the other is so fvcking immersed in fraud it's pathetic. But some how they're going to provide HC to everyone without raising our taxes??? Please.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Area 51

There never has been a proposal to make health care government run, as much as you wish it had been.

WTF do you think the public option was?
Sure it was dropped from this bill but don't go lying about the fact that your most liberal politicians wanted the single payer plan but when that failed they settled for the public option. Those two reasons alone is why the morons (dems) couldn't even agree on the bill to push through when they had a filibuster proof congress..........lol fvcking dimwits, they could fvck up a wet dream..........YOUR ppl are failing you before your very eyes but yet you still try to come on here laying blame on others?
Precious.

[Baasinator]

Originally Posted by Area 51

3. How is it government run? That is more hyperbole. There never has been a proposal to make health care government run, as much as you wish it had been. I swear, do you morons get all your talking points from Sarah Palin?"Government run" is the equivalent of "death panels". Both are lies.

Is it the government who is going to put me in jail if I don't purchase the product they demand I buy? Or was that somebody else?

[Gog]

All that idealism sounds great.... maybe next time you cheelead for a war lie you could factor some future, costs and the cost of what you failed to do.
You ever wonder why social liberals think republicans are wacked? Whining over taxes but cheer-leading for 1.2 trillion dollar wars...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/17/bu...leonhardt.html

The way to come to grips with $1.2 trillion is to forget about the number itself and think instead about what you could buy with the money. When you do that, a trillion stops sounding anything like millions or billions.
For starters, $1.2 trillion would pay for an unprecedented public health campaign — a doubling of cancer research funding, treatment for every American whose diabetes or heart disease is now going unmanaged and a global immunization campaign to save millions of children’s lives.
Combined, the cost of running those programs for a decade wouldn’t use up even half our money pot. So we could then turn to poverty and education, starting with universal preschool for every 3- and 4-year-old child across the country. The city of New Orleans could also receive a huge increase in reconstruction funds.
The final big chunk of the money could go to national security. The recommendations of the 9/11 Commission that have not been put in place — better baggage and cargo screening, stronger measures against nuclear proliferation — could be enacted. Financing for the war in Afghanistan could be increased to beat back the Taliban’s recent gains, and a peacekeeping force could put a stop to the genocide in Darfur.
All that would be one way to spend $1.2 trillion. Here would be another:
The war in Iraq.

We all know you're blaming others but.. money talks and bullshite walks...

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by XFBO

WTF do you think the public option was?

Okay, I kind of put my foot in my mouth on that one. What I should have said is that there was a plan that included a government administered option. But that's far from a completely government-run health care system. So neither of us is wrong or right. Except that, now that I think about it, there actually are two government-run plans. They are the Veterans Administration and Medicare. The vets plan is considered a big success with a few exceptions, like Walter Reed for example. Medicare has treated many millions of people and, contrary to what Murdoch wants you to hear, it will not go broke. So there are two examples of government-run health care that works. Europe and Japan also have examples of successful government administered health care that works. If they can do it why can't we? Are we really that incompetant? I hate to keep harping on it but all this would be moot if health and insurance costs weren't inflated due to corporate beaurocracy, price gouging and rediculously extravigant treatments and proceedures.

Surely you've all heard by now that administrative costs in the U.S. PRIVATE system is around 23% and in Germany or Japan, for example, it is around 6%. That really flys in the face of all the constant harping about government inneficiency. Face it, the big problem we have is that lobbyists for the health care and insurance industries have got our reps over a barrell due to election donations. They write the rules and we get shafted. Anyone who buys drugs here instead of Canada is an idiot. So is anyone who wants to continue to support the health care machine. It's a giant sucking sound and it's sucking at our bank accounts. The private experiment has failed. Not that it can't be fixed. But I don't see that happening due to the growth in power of lobbyists and, yes, the recent Supreme Court decision about corporate donations. The problem is getting worse, not better. America is becomming a land of, for and by the corporation. And the corporate minions are here sticking up for that. Too bad they don't realize it.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Area 51

Okay, I kind of put my foot in my mouth on that one.

Urea, you've been putting your foot in your mouth for as long as I can remember. I'll give you this, you at least acknowledged your fumble in your reply above which is contrary to what you've done 99% of the time in the past.



Obviously, you are not a vet or former military nor are you friends with any.........if you were, you'd know, firsthand, what an ignorant comment you just made about the VA. I laugh every time I hear a democrat OR hippie champion the VA as a success. I have a brother who is a disabled vet who says otherwise and have read or personally spoken with many others who have ALL said the same thing, that it's a fvcking joke. It's embarrassing actually, that the very ppl willing to send our brothers and sisters overseas in conflict cant even provide them with competent HC upon their return. Epic fail.

Secondly, I don't know if you did it on purpose or if you're just that clueless but MediCAID is a failure that continues to drive costs up. There is probably just as much fraud going on in that program than there is with welfare nationwide. If you had listened to the summit yesterday, you'd KNOW that MediCAID fraud in NY alone hovers around $15B. How many ppl/families could THAT money help provide HC for? In the summit, it was also determeined that a THIRD of the money spent on that bill will be wasted and not help the very ppl they're trying to.....a THIRD wasted on fraud, [mis]management, other wasteful shit government is known for!!!! Another words, almost a 1/4 of a trillion dollars will be pissed away and our taxes will continue to grow because of it. Bigger government is NOT the answer.

Thirdly, SS >>>IS<<< going broke.

[nycstripes]

Social Security is the promise of a NEGATIVE return....no special degree needed to figure that one out.

+Sorry to hear about your brother XFBO, thank him for his service

A51, put some time in as a volunteer at any VA Center and you'll see what really happens.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by XFBO

Urea, you've been putting your foot in your mouth for as long as I can remember. I'll give you this, you at least acknowledged your fumble in your reply above which is contrary to what you've done 99% of the time in the past.

Epic fail.

I'm sure from your perspective I'm wrong about everything. I feel pretty good about that, knowing you. I've admitted I was wrong three times: fusion, this time and one other that I can't recall. All the other times I was right.

Epic fail. Yes, everything is an epic fail, isn't it? In what year is SS going to go under? I wan't to know so when that time comes I can can let you know your prediction was wrong. People have been crying wolf about SS and everything else associated with the government as long as I've been alive. Yet the programs continue, even though they use the SS pool to fund everthing under the sun. And you know what, government in general wouldn't be in this mess if it weren't for Reagan, Gingrich and then Bush (did you read the starving the beast article?). Without drastic change the aging population may be a weight too heavy to bare but the systems themselves have worked up until now. And now it's time to reinvent the whole thing to deal with new variables. It's nothing we can't fix. The first thing to do is to stop unscrupulous people from using health as a means to enrichment. Have you heard about Anthem in California? The lavish retreats they send upper level employees to? The million dollar salaries? Do you actually think health care should provide those kind of perks when so many can't even afford basic care let alone hundred thousand dollar operations? This is what happens to every industry that grows and grows, including government. The people at the top get an overinflated sense of value about their talents. It's human nature to take advantage of the situation and pad their bank accounts. Power corrupts. The non-profit pill is what the industry deserves. It's the only moral way to administer health care, IMcorrectO .

Here's another something that you can chew on (besides nero):

Is Medicare Bankrupt? | Health Care | Change.org

[Area 51]

The VA:

From the Washington Post, the "conservative" Washington Post:

Revamped Veterans' Health Care Now a Model - washingtonpost.com

Here's a highlight:

"But in the past decade, largely unnoticed by the public, the system has undergone a dramatic transformation and now is considered by some to be a model."

And this:

Veterans Affairs Healthcare System No. 1 - ABC News

Here's another highlight:

"Study after study puts the VA system at the very top for fewer medical errors, for effective treatments, for lower costs and for patient satisfaction. And the VA delivers all of this for at least $1,500 less per year per patient than Medicare."

Maybe your guys's disgruntles buddies have unrealistic expectations. From all the chest thumping I hear from vets about how they did this or that to serve their country I'd assume they have very high expectations about what society owes them (save your breath because I know what's coming ). At least they have care. In the real world, the private world, you can only see certain doctors, costs are rising and benefits are shrinking, and if you lose coverage you can't get more because you have a pre-existing condition. And that's just the tip of the iceburg. Private insurance and private health care is a minefield. Only the lucky or rich survive. By comparison the VA is golden, with some exceptions of course.

[nycstripes]

Originally Posted by Area 51

I'm sure from your perspective I'm wrong about everything. I feel pretty good about that, knowing you. I've admitted I was wrong three times: fusion, this time and one other that I can't recall. All the other times I was right.

Epic fail. Yes, everything is an epic fail, isn't it? In what year is SS going to go under? I wan't to know so when that time comes I can can let you know your prediction was wrong. People have been crying wolf about SS and everything else associated with the government as long as I've been alive. Yet the programs continue, even though they use the SS pool to fund everthing under the sun. And you know what, government in general wouldn't be in this mess if it weren't for Reagan, Gingrich and then Bush (did you read the starving the beast article?). Without drastic change the aging population may be a weight too heavy to bare but the systems themselves have worked up until now. And now it's time to reinvent the whole thing to deal with new variables. It's nothing we can't fix. The first thing to do is to stop unscrupulous people from using health as a means to enrichment. Have you heard about Anthem in California? The lavish retreats they send upper level employees to? The million dollar salaries? Do you actually think health care should provide those kind of perks when so many can't even afford basic care let alone hundred thousand dollar operations? This is what happens to every industry that grows and grows, including government. The people at the top get an overinflated sense of value about their talents. It's human nature to take advantage of the situation and pad their bank accounts. Power corrupts. The non-profit pill is what the industry deserves. It's the only moral way to administer health care, IMcorrectO .

Here's another something that you can chew on (besides nero):

Is Medicare Bankrupt? | Health Care | Change.org

If Social Security doesn't return a reasonable amount of return for the money stolen from you in your entire lifetime, then its already a failure. What's the rate of return for the investment?

[nycstripes]

Originally Posted by Area 51

The VA:

From the Washington Post, the "conservative" Washington Post:

Revamped Veterans' Health Care Now a Model - washingtonpost.com

Here's a highlight:

"But in the past decade, largely unnoticed by the public, the system has undergone a dramatic transformation and now is considered by some to be a model."

And this:

Veterans Affairs Healthcare System No. 1 - ABC News

Here's another highlight:

"Study after study puts the VA system at the very top for fewer medical errors, for effective treatments, for lower costs and for patient satisfaction. And the VA delivers all of this for at least $1,500 less per year per patient than Medicare."

Maybe your guys's disgruntles buddies have unrealistic expectations. From all the chest thumping I hear from vets about how they did this or that to serve their country I'd assume they have very high expectations about what society owes them (save your breath because I know what's coming ). At least they have care. In the real world, the private world, you can only see certain doctors, costs are rising and benefits are shrinking, and if you lose coverage you can't get more because you have a pre-existing condition. And that's just the tip of the iceburg. Private insurance and private health care is a minefield. Only the lucky or rich survive. By comparison the VA is golden, with some exceptions of course.

You can't just take the VA system and arbitrarily expand it to cover the entire population of the US. Won't work. Its like comparing the health care system in Sweden to the US.

[nycstripes]

Here's some depressing information.
Trustees Report Summary
__________________________________________________ _
A MESSAGE TO THE PUBLIC:


Each year the Trustees of the Social Security and Medicare trust funds report on the current and projected financial status of the two programs. This message summarizes our 2009 Annual Reports. The financial condition of the Social Security and Medicare programs remains challenging. Projected long run program costs are not sustainable under current program parameters. Social Security's annual surpluses of tax income over expenditures are expected to fall sharply this year and to stay about constant in 2010 because of the economic recession, and to rise only briefly before declining and turning to cash flow deficits beginning in 2016 that grow as the baby boom generation retires. The deficits will be made up by redeeming trust fund assets until reserves are exhausted in 2037, at which point tax income would be sufficient to pay about three fourths of scheduled benefits through 2083. Medicare's financial status is much worse. As was true in 2008, Medicare's Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund is expected to pay out more in hospital benefits and other expenditures this year than it receives in taxes and other dedicated revenues. The difference will be made up by redeeming trust fund assets. Growing annual deficits are projected to exhaust HI reserves in 2017, after which the percentage of scheduled benefits payable from tax income would decline from 81 percent in 2017 to about 50 percent in 2035 and 30 percent in 2080. In addition, the Medicare Supplementary Medical Insurance (SMI) Trust Fund that pays for physician services and the prescription drug benefit will continue to require general revenue financing and charges on beneficiaries that grow substantially faster than the economy and beneficiary incomes over time.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Area 51

In what year is SS going to go under?

Don't take my word for it, here's a graph for you from the CBO.

Originally Posted by nycstripes

Its like comparing the health care system in Sweden to the US.

Funny you chose that country of all, my brother married a Swede and has lived there for about 7 yrs now. Although now divorced, he still reaps the benefits of residing there and uses their HC. Imagine that, an American (for a change) reaping the rewards of HC from another country without ever having paid into the system. LOL!

Now if Sweden only got another million customers like him, I'd wonder if they'd still brag about their so called free HC.

[Area 51]

I've seen the graphs and heard the warnings. They are daunting. But every time they tell us this we end up putting a band aid on it and the problem goes away for a while. It's like the debt limit. They just rework the numbers and whamo, everything is good for a while longer...then they do it again and again. I'm worried we can't keep this up forever but the predictions are always worst case scenario and the dire situation always fizzles...only to be replaced by more warnings. There is no problem we cannot fix and when push comes to shove they will fix all of these issues. If the turds in Washington would get to work right now and quit cowtowing to lobbyists and their own special interests none of these issues would see the light of day. In the best (cough) of traditions we are reactive rather than proactive. It's the way of the world. I don't know but I wonder what would SS be like if the turds weren't always pulling money out of it for other things. It could be running like a clock for all I know. I'm sure you geniuses know all about how it wouldn't though.

I have an American friend who lives in Sweden too. He used to live here with his Swedish girlfriend but she has glaucoma and they moved back to Sweden so she could get free care. Not that that means anything.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by nycstripes

You can't just take the VA system and arbitrarily expand it to cover the entire population of the US. Won't work. Its like comparing the health care system in Sweden to the US.

Well, I'm no expert but I'd guess that it would work if you legislated all costs and took the money from other budget items. It's all about priorities. You take away the Congresspersons cadillac health care, tell them they can only have what every single other person has and they will sure as hell fix the problem for all of us, guarenteed.

Here's another idea: tie Congressional pay to performance. If they are in the black and the CBO or possibly some citizens watchdog panel says services are adequate then they get a big bonus. But you still have to get corporate money out of politics. They should be payed for what they do for us, not what they do for business.

[nycstripes]

Originally Posted by Area 51

I've seen the graphs and heard the warnings. They are daunting. But every time they tell us this we end up putting a band aid on it and the problem goes away for a while. It's like the debt limit. They just rework the numbers and whamo, everything is good for a while longer...then they do it again and again. I'm worried we can't keep this up forever but the predictions are always worst case scenario and the dire situation always fizzles...only to be replaced by more warnings. There is no problem we cannot fix and when push comes to shove they will fix all of these issues. If the turds in Washington would get to work right now and quit cowtowing to lobbyists and their own special interests none of these issues would see the light of day. In the best (cough) of traditions we are reactive rather than proactive. It's the way of the world. I don't know but I wonder what would SS be like if the turds weren't always pulling money out of it for other things. It could be running like a clock for all I know. I'm sure you geniuses know all about how it wouldn't though.

I have an American friend who lives in Sweden too. He used to live here with his Swedish girlfriend but she has glaucoma and they moved back to Sweden so she could get free care. Not that that means anything.

Your whole evaluation of the fixes for the problems are a bit pie in the sky. Push has already come to shove and they Dems are running to the walls with the addition of more entitlement programs that threaten to bankrupt the entire US economy. No one thing they've done has seemed to help in the least. AIG is also most likely in big trouble again despite the billions we the tax payers gave them.
Just keep in mind that only 5-6 out of 10 Americans even pay income tax at all.

Redistribution of wealth seems to be the underlying premise of this administration and they're hell bent on doing everything they can to do so. No flexibility. No compromises like the dog and pony show held by the President yesterday. Obama wanted no part of listening to any idea that Pelosi doesn't endorse with regard to health care.
Not wanting to take the health care issue peace meal and deal with individual issues that can help the most American's accept the changes being proposed and demanding acceptance of the Left's proposals only is arrogant. Obama's statements reflect that all too often with regard to his "we're in charge now" attitude.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Area 51

I'm worried we can't keep this up forever but the predictions are always worst case scenario and the dire situation always fizzles...only to be replaced by more warnings. There is no problem we cannot fix and when push comes to shove they will fix all of these issues.

That's just it, we CANNOT keep this up forever.....you're line above, "only to be replaced by more warnings" replace warnings with bandaids and you hit the nail on the head. You cannot treat cancer with a topical lotion (bandaid) it needs to be cut the fvck out. No matter how much you dont want to believe it it doesnt make the very real problem go away and that is SS is going broke. In the not so distant future there will be more ppl collecting than ppl contributing, all one has to do is pay attention to the overrun border issues, the lack of I.C.E. deporting illegals, etc.... to see this prediction is coming true before our very own eyes.

If the turds in Washington would get to work right now and quit cowtowing to lobbyists and their own special interests none of these issues would see the light of day.

Both parties are guilty of this, I agree.

In the best (cough) of traditions we are reactive rather than proactive. It's the way of the world. I don't know but I wonder what would SS be like if the turds weren't always pulling money out of it for other things. It could be running like a clock for all I know. I'm sure you geniuses know all about how it wouldn't though.

That's just it, they CANT be trusted to do anything positive!!! They're always raiding the well funded programs to help pump life into those that aren't, the next thing you know both are failing.

So that begs the next question, knowing they've fvcked up so much in history, what the hell makes you think they wont fudge up this HC bill?

Lastly, the only way they're going to fix this mess, is to increases taxes on those of us who work.

I have an American friend who lives in Sweden too. He used to live here with his Swedish girlfriend but she has glaucoma and they moved back to Sweden so she could get free care. Not that that means anything.

LOL......what's it supposed to mean? Free means FREE, who in their right minds would pay elsewhere if they could get it free in their homeland?

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by nycstripes

Your whole evaluation of the fixes for the problems are a bit pie in the sky. Push has already come to shove and they Dems are running to the walls with the addition of more entitlement programs that threaten to bankrupt the entire US economy. No one thing they've done has seemed to help in the least. AIG is also most likely in big trouble again despite the billions we the tax payers gave them.
Just keep in mind that only 5-6 out of 10 Americans even pay income tax at all.

Redistribution of wealth seems to be the underlying premise of this administration and they're hell bent on doing everything they can to do so. No flexibility. No compromises like the dog and pony show held by the President yesterday. Obama wanted no part of listening to any idea that Pelosi doesn't endorse with regard to health care.
Not wanting to take the health care issue peace meal and deal with individual issues that can help the most American's accept the changes being proposed and demanding acceptance of the Left's proposals only is arrogant. Obama's statements reflect that all too often with regard to his "we're in charge now" attitude.

Phuck, why do I let myself get roped into these damn arguements? I admit my fixes are pie-in-the-sky. But so is Ron Paul. Maybe it's time to vote for Ron Paul. But I sure as hell wouldn't vote for any Tea Partyers now that they cowtow to Sarah Screetchy-Voice Palin. Ron Paul is a possibility though.

Name one thing? Are you kidding? They (along with Little Georgie Porgy Bush) just turned a predicted depression into a recession. If they do nothing more, that is enough. Geez, a few of the bailouts have even netted a positive return. I heard a very good description of what has just happened in Washington. The question was: Has Obama advanced socialism in America? Well, one of the answers was that no, what he has done is save capitalism from itself! Greed grew and grew, like it often does, and someone had to pick up the pieces and put them back together. In ten years time, after most of the money is returned, and if Obama had been a Republican, you guys would be naming airports after him. The fault of what happened lies with capitalists, and the so-called, misnomered socialists rode into town to save the day. How totally phucking ironic is that?

No compromise.
I swear, I friggin' swear, your hatred of Obama is mind-numbing (your mind!). Wasn't the dropping of the public option a compromise? That was the number one thing that liberals wanted and Republicans got what they wanted. And isn't tort reform part of the present plan? I'm asking because I'm not sure on that one. Whatever, one thing that is clear to me, the Republicans aren't interested in compromise any more than Democrats are and probably less so. What have the Republicans compromised on, staying out of restroom stalls? How about John Buehner? That moron wouldn't compromise even if the fix was a no-brainer and complete solution. But he is the equivalent of Nance Pelosi, I'll admit that.