Hope, Change, BULL*&^%

[RockyMt]

Originally Posted by nycstripes

France!

Ya know why the french line their roads with trees? The germans like marching in the shade!

-Rocky-

[Justin]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

The only negotiations we should consider with the taliban is wether to use pork tipped bulletts or just rip their limbs off slowly..............

-Rocky-

+10000000 Rocky!!! I really wonder how many here really understand the dynamics of the real situation..the mentality of the type of people that see killing infidels as an act that their god not only accepts but condones?? An act that rewards with entrance to heaven..?? I am just glad they use their range time as prayer time!!

[Gog]

Nobody likes or wants violent killers on the streets either. But saying you're willing to break the law to kill one...you're not that much better.
What you just witnessed in your country was the biggest breach of law and order in your history. If you dont stop or pause to take notice, you will lose your holy/political/money war and take us with you.

Havent you learned? You cannot defeat those you have illegally mistreated, like the native Americans who were living here when you arrived. You know about those days? Or have you been told that is was your god given right to wipe them out? Today's victims, of that ilk of crime, will get you. They wont win but, neither will you and we all lose. As soon as you goons realize this, the better of we all will be. The average native brave in America, circa 1800, one that was fighting eradication and elimination, would have used a nuke on you in a heartbeat. They didn't exist back then but..guess what? They do now, along with a host of other devices and compounds that enable one man to do the damage of hundreds of thousands. . Just that knowledge alone should make you guys pause but, hey, no, not the brilliant, regime changing, never wrong, god's gift folks who will crush anything 'evil' that moves.

America's militaristic, army orientated, brave men should not despair, when wondering if they will become defunct, enforcing compliance for the next paradigm's eco code will require planes, trains and boatloads of "world cops" and all the tech they can carry. Something as needed and appreciated as local cops. But guess what? You have to work with others, honestly, reliably, honorably and, they wont tolerate your arrogant bullshit that has been proven to be toxic, divisive, costs too much, takes us off target and doesnt work or help!

[RockyMt]

gag, why do I get the feeling that if you were to live in asscrackistan (we can only hope....) that yer mama and daughter would be wearing burkas? YOU CAN NOT "NEGOTIATE" WITH SOCIOPATHIC KILLERS, PERIOD! Remember when we had this little talk a few weeks ago? When you encounter a nest of Brown Recluse spiders in your basement, or a Rattlesnake den under your deck, do you try and "negotiate"? NO! YOU KILL THEM FIRST (before they kill you for some percieved slight from 6 generations ago....) gog, do us a favor and go back to pottery, let the men do the heavy lifting while you nurture your garden.......

-Rocky-

[RockyMt]

gag, your last name isn't Chamberlin is it, do you have English ancestors?

-Rocky-

(didn't work 70 years ago, won't work now..........)

[Gog]

Listen coRky..................... that is the sound of your own stupidity.

What you have mixed up, worse than your metaphors, is the process of negotiation. You want to skip law and order, truth and justice because you feel these things are "negotiations" with criminals. That makes you such an emotional fruitcake. We both want the asshole removed from the picture but your way is for morons like the LAPD cops who beat Rodney King. If you were good at math you might be able to understand that, in the end, better(and cheaper) to leave the prosecution and punishment to a system that, half baked as it is, remains 1000% better than the suggestions, solutions or cravings of you and your war mongering lynch mob.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by nycstripes

Clinton's cruise missle campaign was a fraud, albeit an expensive one that accomplished absolutely nothing but to convince wimpy liberals that Clinton could take the fight back to the Islamic extremists responsible for attacking us all over the world. It was a sham and an embarassment.
His blowing up numerous outhouses and flocks of goats with multimillion dollar cruise missles was the sad part. He should have just done nothing like always and saved the missles for something more important.
Shit, empty pharmaceutical plants, empty training camps...those are not decisive military actions and they accomplished...zip. We'll maybe we came off more incompetent to the world afterwards since nobody important was ever directly targeted or killed by all of this pageantry by the Clinton White House. He was a zero as a military leader and balked at real opportunities to do real damage to the enemy.

I actually don't think killing OBL would do anything but make us feel a little better that the murdering bastard is dead. He's been allowed to run long enough that his absence will mean next to nothing in the grander scheme of things. I am sure some idiot here will be making and selling OBL t-shirts and teaching of his greater goodness like Che Guevara in the nation's schools.

What makes you think that I would be in favor of negotiating with the Taliban?

I wasn't talking to you about negotiating with the Taliban. My comment was directed at XFOB. A Clue: When a post does not include a quote yet it is obviously directed at someone, then you should assume that it is directed at the person immediately above; in this case post #45. And a tip: put one of these, ^, at the top of a post when it is directed to the post immediately above your own (I forgot to do that).

The rest of your post is a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking that ignores the realities of the time before 9/11.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by XFBO

I dont know how any country can be a strong one without being properly equipped for defense, Id like to hear your version of an example who is.

Costa Rica. They abolished their military years ago. I don't know much about it but I know a lot of Americans dig CR. There are countries all over the globe that have little military muscle and they don't get invaded. The reason we have a huge military is that we provide security for much of the rest of the world and also to back up all of our BIG-business activities - yet another example of corporate welfare.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Area 51

Costa Rica. They abolished their military years ago. I don't know much about it but I know a lot of Americans dig CR. There are countries all over the globe that have little military muscle and they don't get invaded. The reason we have a huge military is that we provide security for much of the rest of the world and also to back up all of our BIG-business activities - yet another example of corporate welfare.

Has this discussion got that desparate for you?
Costa Rica? LOL!
Listen, you're right about Americans loving it and yes it is a beautiful country but please dont compare something that country to us. Bottom line is this, if the USA didnt exist as a defense powerhouse EVERYONE on this side of the hemisphere would be terrified.

We dont live in Pleasantville as much as you wish we did....it's a nice thought but far from reality. Clinton didnt really do much in support of Israel during his occupation of the WH but yet AQ still had it in for us when they attacked us 4 times.....once on our homeland. They also masterminded 9/11 during his watch, can you imagine the repercussions if we abolished our military?

[RockyMt]

Originally Posted by Area 51

Costa Rica. They abolished their military years ago. I don't know much about it but I know a lot of Americans dig CR. There are countries all over the globe that have little military muscle and they don't get invaded. The reason we have a huge military is that we provide security for much of the rest of the world and also to back up all of our BIG-business activities - yet another example of corporate welfare.

With all due respect, THAT is one of the dumbest things said so far. I own property in Costa Rica, it's a BEAUTIFUL country, it is not currently threatened because the main resource they have is TOURISM. As long as there is no natural resource or strategic location, they get left alone. It has NOTHING to do with the size of their millitary.

-Rocky-

[RockyMt]

Originally Posted by Gog

Listen coRky..................... that is the sound of your own stupidity.

What you have mixed up, worse than your metaphors, is the process of negotiation. You want to skip law and order, truth and justice because you feel these things are "negotiations" with criminals. That makes you such an emotional fruitcake. We both want the asshole removed from the picture but your way is for morons like the LAPD cops who beat Rodney King. If you were good at math you might be able to understand that, in the end, better(and cheaper) to leave the prosecution and punishment to a system that, half baked as it is, remains 1000% better than the suggestions, solutions or cravings of you and your war mongering lynch mob.

gag, you must be supremely happy that your hero al bore "invented" the internet, it's the only place a pantywaist like you can toss slurs around without having to back 'em up. Me thinks you got yer ass kicked a LOT in school (before mommy home schooled you.....) so now you get to play with the big boys without fear of retribution. You also are obviously in love with the sound of your own voice, have you ever REALLY listened to yourself? The tripe you spew lost it's lusted YEARS ago, but maybe up north it's still fodder for thought.....The part I enjoy the most though is, DOWN DEEP YOU REALIZE YOU CAN'T "WIN". Human nature, greed, politics and the allmighty dollar will ensure that we will continue down what you consider the road to ruinition, all your rants and recycling won't change a thing, and it drives you nuts and keeps you awake at night. Voters will give Dems a chance, and when thet fvck it up (as they ALWAYS do) Republicans will be back at the controls, it's inevitable. Chill pal, have a Mojito, when we finally have our backs to the wall (in another 50 years) mankind will pull a rabbit outa it's ass and cure all our ills, till then chill pal, there's nothing left for you to do but wait. And don't worry, I (as the rest of us here) take your comments with a grain of salt, we consider the source, snicker, and move on. Chill pal, you'll live longer (and leave a larger "carbon footprint"!)

-Rocky-

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

With all due respect, THAT is one of the dumbest things said so far. I own property in Costa Rica, it's a BEAUTIFUL country, it is not currently threatened because the main resource they have is TOURISM. As long as there is no natural resource or strategic location, they get left alone. It has NOTHING to do with the size of their millitary.

-Rocky-

Yeah, yeah. It wasn't meant to impress anyone. By the way, isn't tourism a resource? Don't you think Mexican businessmen, for example, would like to get ahold of those beaches. I think a bigger reason for no conflict is the U.N. and the U.S. I don't think anyone would stand for the invasion of a neutral, peaceful country like CR (especially when it involves a good amount of U.S. investment and people). Unless they did have natural resources. Then we would have been down there long ago taking and grabbing, just like we did in so many other places, not to mention all the other countries that would do the same. So I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you. Frankly it's not a big deal. Next topic.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by XFBO

...if the USA didnt exist as a defense powerhouse EVERYONE on this side of the hemisphere would be terrified.

We dont live in Pleasantville as much as you wish we did....it's a nice thought but far from reality. Clinton didnt really do much in support of Israel during his occupation of the WH but yet AQ still had it in for us when they attacked us 4 times.....once on our homeland. They also masterminded 9/11 during his watch, can you imagine the repercussions if we abolished our military?

Oh brother, aren't you full of yourself. The U.S. has a very checkered history in Latin America. I wouldn't be tooting my horn about our benevolent protectorite if I were you.

Clinton was a verbal supporter of Israel just like every dumb president. The real support comes from Congress. We give a shitload of money and sweet deals to that country no matter who is President. The Israeli lobby bribes (lobbies) our reps and they get what allows them to be strong and voracious land-grabbers.

If we abolished our military we wouldn't have the balls to do the things we do (like install the Shaw). I'm not advocating that we junk our military - that would be stupid. I think it's use strays far from the realm of self-defense though.

[DesperateSP2]

Let's get back in track and let's talk about a very pertinent argument, no matter which place in the world you live.
How will Obama, Sarkozy, Brown, Jintao or whoever your local ruler is pay for his promises? They promised to send more troops to Afghanistan, increase health spending, bail out the local car industry and save stupid people from their own stupidity.
Governments have only three ways to get the money they need. Taxation, debt and classical inflation.
Taxation in the Western world is already at an all time high. Even the thickest politician knows what happen when you increase taxes: the economy slows down (see Europe and its anemic growth even during "boom" years), people become disaffected and even dear old ladies try to hide money from the taxman. Worse yet a shrinking economy means less taxes to be gathered: that's one of the reasons they fear "deflation" so much.
Debt. All countries are running enormous debts to keep a "balanced" budget. The US has led the way in recent years "selling" huge amounts of its debt to foreign investors, mostly Asiatic institutions. Problem is even the mighty Chinese economy and the legendary Japanese savers are showing signs of fatigue and becoming more wary of investments. Some of them are even questioning the AAA rating of some foreign debt they have been purchasing in the past. Will they buy more in the future? Will there be real wealth to allow the US and other countries (Spain, Italy etc) to spend beyond their means?
Classical inflation may not take the form of printing presses churning out bundles of worthless Continentals and Assignat anymore but the concept is exactly the same. Ever wondered why prices do not decline despite huge drops in raw material prices and industrial costs? There's a good answer.
Inflation in Weimar Germany reached such extreme proportions because the economy was so battered that even the thought of raising taxes was unacceptable to everyone, even hardcore Socialists, nobody wanted to buy German debt anymore and the government was spending like there was no tomorrow: sure they had heavy war damages to repay, but they also had this idea that they also needed to "kickstart" the economy by pouring money into a series of black holes. At the height of the German hyperinflation, little before Hitler won the elections in 1933 (he didn't suddenly appear one morning out of thin air like many like to believe), less than 4% of the State budget came from taxation. They printed all the rest.
So how is Mr Obama going to keep his promises: send more troops to Afghanistan, expand health care programs, give a blank cheque to Detroit and Wall Street etc? I doubt he will raise taxes that much and I don't know if the Japanese will be so willing to purchase more debt. Sure, he can run the risk of a hugely unbalanced budget but then what will happen?
Question is this: how much money will it be needed to run the US into the ground?

[Gog]

Originally Posted by DesperateSP2

Let's get back in track and let's talk about a very pertinent argument, no matter which place in the world you live.
How will Obama, Sarkozy, Brown, Jintao or whoever your local ruler is pay for his promises?
Also: What IS the value of money now? I mean, if you give a billion to the Katrina effort and only one hundred million makes it to the help desk... what is the value of a billion? Apparently, 100,000,000! Someone is stealing the money on an institutionalized scale, through perks, privilege and treason.
Obama better address it.

They promised to send more troops to Afghanistan, increase health spending, bail out the local car industry and save stupid people from their own stupidity.
Governments have only three ways to get the money they need. Taxation, debt and classical inflation.
Dont forget WAR and Corruption!

Taxation in the Western world is already at an all time high. Even the thickest politician knows what happen when you increase taxes: the economy slows down (see Europe and its anemic growth even during "boom" years), people become disaffected and even dear old ladies try to hide money from the taxman. Worse yet a shrinking economy means less taxes to be gathered: that's one of the reasons they fear "deflation" so much.

Reinvention(green) defeats deflation like rock crushes scissors.

Debt. All countries are running enormous debts to keep a "balanced" budget. The US has led the way in recent years "selling" huge amounts of its debt to foreign investors, mostly Asiatic institutions. Problem is even the mighty Chinese economy and the legendary Japanese savers are showing signs of fatigue and becoming more wary of investments. Some of them are even questioning the AAA rating of some foreign debt they have been purchasing in the past. Will they buy more in the future? Will there be real wealth to allow the US and other countries (Spain, Italy etc) to spend beyond their means?
Classical inflation may not take the form of printing presses churning out bundles of worthless Continentals and Assignat anymore but the concept is exactly the same. Ever wondered why prices do not decline despite huge drops in raw material prices and industrial costs? There's a good answer.
Inflation in Weimar Germany reached such extreme proportions because the economy was so battered that even the thought of raising taxes was unacceptable to everyone, even hardcore Socialists, nobody wanted to buy German debt anymore and the government was spending like there was no tomorrow: sure they had heavy war damages to repay, but they also had this idea that they also needed to "kickstart" the economy by pouring money into a series of black holes. At the height of the German hyperinflation, little before Hitler won the elections in 1933 (he didn't suddenly appear one morning out of thin air like many like to believe), less than 4% of the State budget came from taxation. They printed all the rest.
So many lessons from our past! America doesnt even have to leave it contemplative shores to learn what happened when the scum floated to the top.
So how is Mr Obama going to keep his promises: send more troops to Afghanistan,
By getting other countries(allies) to pitch in and do their fair share. I think people will respond to a respectful person, rather than deal with the arrogant, egotesticle, stupid Cheneys and Dumsfelds of this world.
expand health care programs,
Ask Canada

give a blank cheque to Detroit and Wall Street etc?
Give money to make sure green sticks, stays and flourishes.

I doubt he will raise taxes that much and I don't know if the Japanese will be so willing to purchase more debt. Sure, he can run the risk of a hugely unbalanced budget but then what will happen?
Question is this: how much money will it be needed to run the US into the ground?

I hope that doesnt happen! Staying alive and telling the truth is what will shape our destiny unless lying ourselves to death is out destiny. Not the color or supposed value of paper, budgets, promises, credit, trade, profit, arrangements or economies. Economies decide who gets how much of what for the harvesting of earth, ecology, animals and the realization of our hobbies and vacations. The ecology is what puts air in the lungs and that, I am happy to report, trumps food on the table(which is a close second however, the order is ever so important). I dont think there can be a solution until left and right get it together. Got to get rid of the fundamentalist extremists. Look what they did to Islam!
They are trying to do it to America. End of the world clubs that want to play politics and direct armies!

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by Gog

Got to get rid of the fundamentalist extremists. Look what they did to Islam!
They are trying to do it to America. End of the world clubs that want to play politics and direct armies!

Yep. I second that. Both the east, the middle, and the west have a FUNDAMENTAL weakness. That and poverty are the future's weak links.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

I own property in Costa Rica, it's a BEAUTIFUL country,-coRky-

Sorry, I just love Gag's abuse of your name.

Tell us about Costa Rica. My friend wants to go halves on a place in Hawaii. I told him, are you crazy, Hawaii costs an arm and a leg. What about CR? He wants to go down and check it out. He said his friend was down there last year and had more fun than should be legal. He couldn't tell me the details because our wives were out to dinner with us. I think it had something to do with prostitution. But to be clear, I'm not into that. I just like the jungle, the ocean, the fishing, the beaches, the layed-back lifestyle, the low cost, the same time zone (?). He said that the west coast is more costly but much safer. Where's your place? How safe is your investment? Any tips?

[DesperateSP2]

As you can see I deliberately avoided anything enviroment related because I know it has little to do with facts and a lot to do with faith. It doesn't matter who is "right", when the enviroment is concerned people turn into mindless zealots at each other's throat.

The problem is not about good causes or bad causes, it's about having the money or not having the money to pay for promises. You can have the very best intentions but where are you going to get the money? You are going to take it forcibly from other people be it through taxation, debt or inflation. In short politicians have dreams and taxpayers have to fork the bill. I am not questioning the ethics, I am just asking the usual question I ask every politician and idealist I meet: "Can we afford that?". You may have the very best intentions but you have to finance them.
We are already in up to our neck because many people thought that sound money was a "relic from a barbarous past" and that economy can only be boosted by reckless spending. Don't you have enough?
Mr Obama may think that forcing people into going "green" is a great way to get out of the current situation but Hoover and Roosevelt also thought that hiring thousands of persons to build dams was a great way to get out of America's Great Depression. Didin't work the first time but perhaps he'll be luckier.
I am not questioning the utility of going "green" or building dams but I am asking again "Can we afford that?"

[RockyMt]

Long story shor onn Costa Rica, "west" coast (pacific side) more traditional Latin (catholic) values, somewhat more modern, "east" coast (carribean) waaaay more laid back lifestyle, phenominal weather everywhere, as everywhere, certain places are dicey after dark if you are a foreign tourista with a heat on and a wallet full-o-cash. LE is generally trustworthy, as they understand tourisim and foreign investment is the key to prosperity. Do yourself a favor and go down for a month and I guarantee you will be looking for a little slice of Shangra-La!

-Rocky-

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by DesperateSP2

You can have the very best intentions but where are you going to get the money?

Borrow it from China - just like Bush did.