The notorious Milgrim Study is one of the most well known of psychology experiments. Stanley Milgram, a social psychologist at Yale University, wanted to test obedience to authority. He set up an experiment with “teachers” who were the actual participants, and a “learner,” who was an actor.
Both the teacher and the learner were told that the study was about memory and learning.
Both the learner and the teacher received slips that they were told were given to them randomly, when in fact, both had been given slips that read “teacher.” The actor claimed to receive a “learner” slip, so the teacher was deceived. Both were separated into separate rooms and could only hear each other. The teacher read a pair of words, following by four possible answers to the question. If the learner was incorrect with his answer, the teacher was to administer a shock with voltage that increased with every wrong answer. If correct, there would be no shock, and the teacher would advance to the next question.
In reality, no one was being shocked. A tape recorder with pre-recorded screams was hooked up to play each time the teacher administered a shock. When the shocks got to a higher voltage, the actor/learner would bang on the wall and ask the teacher to stop. Eventually all screams and banging would stop and silence would ensue. This was the point when many of the teachers exhibited extreme distress and would ask to stop the experiment. Some questioned the experiment, but many were encouraged to go on and told they would not be responsible for any results.
If at any time the subject indicated his desire to halt the experiment, he was told by the experimenter, Please continue. The experiment requires that you continue. It is absolutely essential that you continue. You have no other choice, you must go on. If after all four orders the teacher still wished to stop the experiment, it was ended. Only 14 out of 40 teachers halted the experiment before administering a 450 volt shock, though every participant questioned the experiment, and no teacher firmly refused to stop the shocks before 300 volts.
In 1981, Tom Peters and Robert H. Waterman Jr. wrote that the Milgram Experiment and the later Stanford prison experiment were frightening in their implications about the danger lurking in human nature’s dark side.
WOW
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We are all vulnerable and susceptible to our natures, fears and desires. Those who do not address their contradictions, paradoxes and vulnerabilities are truly the scariest of us all! Those who defer these darker natures to simplistic and convenient "God and the Devil" dogma have taken the easy way out. They are easy to influence and yet impossible to budge.
You will never have a shortage of willing, or unwilling voltage regulators. The desire to do the right thing has to be given up in the face of authority and during pressure and crisis.
All we can do is: the right thing.
OMFG 20_RC51_00.... thats very sad and totally incredible. The evil that lurks in the hearts of men.
The reason I posted the Milgram study was to make a point about torture. My point to the right wing mind is this: Whatever we gain by these methods is lost in our spirit, soul and will. Trying to justify torture is a weak man's gambit. It shows us men who take the easy, ungodly way out. It shows us men who, ultimately, dont care about humanity or law. Yes the bad guy is really bad, yes there are some benefits to extracting data but, when the math is done, it's not worth it. Of course we can shorten our mission, and losses if we become evil. Hope those savings can be spread over the length your eternal afterlife without too many adverse effects.
There are so many horror stories. Each and every researching quack had their reasons. Their paltry facts over effectiveness are dismissed and the lust for the actual torture becomes the mission itself. This is well documented. Look at Abu Ghraib, for starters.
We do not need to repeat experiments that have already been done. We do not need to deny results or "retest". We do not need the dismissal of conscience from cowboys and fairy tale tellers.
I think that we(all peoples of earth) are now faced with a decision. The decision is whether we unite or divide ourselves. It seems to me, the average, right wing person wants walls, segregation, division, dominance(perceived anyway), control and fear to rule over people. This does not sit well with me, and doesn't make me liberal if I vehemently object. The right wing bottom line is very hard to take, especially when you see the terrible results that follow these philosophers, on each level, in good times and in bad, during their illustrious careers.
In the same manner that people dismiss their failings, they dismiss the consequences. It's not hard to imagine where eight more years, of what we just saw, would leaves us. OMFG!
...when the math is done, it's not worth it.
...look at at Abu Ghraib, for starters.
I just heard something on this. I think it was a guest on a talk radio, maybe.
He said that al Qaeda recruiting had dried up after 9/11. After Abu Ghraib and after Gitmo recuriting spiked. Terrorism thrives on us providing them motivation. It is the one thing that drives it above everything else.
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
Go for a 4,000th chorus of "Kum-Ba-Yah" ladies, the rest of us will be busy killing fvcksticks who want to kill us first..........(you wouldn't understand, and if you did, you'd roll over and surrender, 'case thats the kharmically correct thing to do, dontcha know..............
-Rocky-
ps. gag, sometimes I actually envy you, your life is soooo simple with EVERYTHING being a nice shade of black or white, must be nice............
__________________
ROCKYMT
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Go for a 4,000th chorus of "Kum-Ba-Yah" ladies, the rest of us will be busy killing fvcksticks who want to kill us first..........(you wouldn't understand, and if you did, you'd roll over and surrender, 'case thats the kharmically correct thing to do, dontcha know..............
-Rocky-
ps. gag, sometimes I actually envy you, your life is soooo simple with EVERYTHING being a nice shade of black or white, must be nice............
lol you seem as riteous as mrgrn.... let me guess....you're christian?....hahah
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyMt
ps. gag, sometimes I actually envy you, your life is soooo simple with EVERYTHING being a nice shade of black or white, must be nice............
lol even though I'd agree with you to some extent, at least he has shown some self reflection and consideration of the variables...whether he's right is really up to personal opinion. but you present yourself of the type that he was alluding to that takes the answer from authority and goes without much questions.....
example...V
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyMt
No problem, turn over OBL and we stop tossing hellfire missles at yer caves, simple really.
-Rocky-
Last edited by 20_RC51_00; 01-24-2009 at 09:53 PM.
Don't see the example in your example. They rat him out, we go home....easy.
-Rocky-
__________________
ROCKYMT
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
lol you seem as riteous as mrgrn.... let me guess....you're christian?....hahah
lol even though I'd agree with you to some extent, at least he has shown some self reflection and consideration of the variables...whether he's right is really up to personal opinion. but you present yourself of the type that he was alluding to that takes the answer from authority and goes without much questions.....
example...V
Ohhhh, name calling! Just wondering if your PC dogma would allow you to "out" me as a Muslim if I happened to be a member of the losing side of the current holy war. No, I'm what you'd call a recovering Catholic, almost never set foot in a church, (not intentionally, just don't) just the tribe I was born into. Feel free to use that for any further character shortcuts or need for generalizations that may arise.....
-Rocky-
__________________
ROCKYMT
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Go for a 4,000th chorus of "Kum-Ba-Yah" ladies, the rest of us will be busy killing fvcksticks who want to kill us first..........(you wouldn't understand, and if you did, you'd roll over and surrender, 'case thats the kharmically correct thing to do, dontcha know..............
-Rocky-
ps. gag, sometimes I actually envy you, your life is soooo simple with EVERYTHING being a nice shade of black or white, must be nice............
Lol Corky
I suppose the notion of avoiding a war in the first place never really sunk in huh? You are too daft for a basic, simple concept that is so simple? I am starting to believe that GWB was/is, indeed, smarter than you. You are the guy who wants 'his' police to beat people on the street. The expansion of your ideas to a global level means(I can assume);
You support beating other countries in a similar fashion?
I already asked you the question... Who paid for the damage caused by LA Riots? The jackass, lame ass, pussy ass, keystone cops? Um..No. Who pays for Iraq? Haliburton? The CIA? Mystery Contractors or profiteers? Um..No. Your dumb and bad ideas are why your situation is critical.
Why dont you learn something about you world other than things that frighten you?
You calling me black and white,,,chuckle Rocky.
Most of the time I end up speaking in extremes to make a point with people who never seem to acknowledge their mistakes, misconceptions or ignorance. They are not willing to learn their way out of a bag of dogshit or NOT to crawl in there in the first place. I realize one must be careful chasing monsters...lest...
Quote:
lol even though I'd agree with you to some extent, at least he has shown some self reflection and consideration of the variables...whether he's right is really up to personal opinion. but you present yourself of the type that he was alluding to that takes the answer from authority and goes without much questions.....
I agree too however, if I start thinking twice(one for reality and one for...the right brain) I wont respond and that'd be the end of the War Room for me. I write it fast and press 'Submit Reply". It takes a lot of stomach and fortitude to respond to such levels of ignorance and arrogance. So what I lack in diplomacy or finesse, I make up for in staying power.
I believe mostly what I see. I believe, strongly, that we can learn from lessons all around us. We have learned that learning itself has limits and that some lessons dont have to be learned repeatedly. The Milgram study was tame compared to others. Learning our histories is one, sure fire, way to learn about failures and successes. However, when dealing with a righty, we have to digress to the 1100s just so they'll be able to follow. This brave, new world has frightened them back to their church basements and filled them with heavenly desires to bomb people, emphasize our differences, hate the poor, stop safe progress and build walls. WTF do we do with them?
Here's an example. People are laid off from a factory because the factory failed. The reasons: GWB ran it. We dont want those workers dead do we? But, coRky doesnt want them sucking his life savings away. He doesnt want them turning to crime does he? He suggests that killing them is cheaper and braver and safer but he is willing to let them live in a compound similar to GitMO or Gaza. That would be mighty right of him now I suppose. Here's the hitch... The right wingers are now the ones who should be in those lines! They should be fired, kicked out, disowned however, we all know they get to keep their jobs...just like CEOs and lying, cheating bastards, who turned their gaze away, because they are from wealth(relatively speaking).
All the money in the world doesnt hide stupidity. All the pride, custom or duty in the world doesnt excuse dishonor. This Milgram study has made me question authority a little more. The republican, right winger wants this as state policy and institutionalized!.
I don't know weather to tell you to "put down the pipe" or "pick up the pipe!" The are issues you have are well beyond and much deeper than the ravings of an angry man in an internet chat room, snowed in?
-Rocky-
__________________
ROCKYMT
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Milgram Study
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