Isreal and the same old same old

[Area 51]

So, a new country is rammed down the throats of people who have lived there for generations. Hundreds of thousands of Palistinians are pushed off of their lands to make room for what basically amounts to a European colony. The process goes on for fifty-plus years and when the victims don't roll over and take it like wimps they are hit with modern weapons. Maybe we should replace In God We Trust with Mite Makes Right.

[simonkobe]

its not right...
more children dying for nothing....

[XFBO]

Both countries are screw ups, are either of you truly blaming one country for this ongoing problem?

[Area 51]

Yep, both are screw-ups. It gives me no warm feelings to back Hamas and Hezbollah, none whatsoever. But Israel and the U.S. are the big bullies on the block and they have been pushing dirt-poor people around since the inception of Israel. There are over 4 million people living in the refugee camps and they are still there in part because we prop up Israel. Israel is a black mark on our reputation and should never have come to be. The Palestinians never agreed to the takeover just like the American Indian never agreed to it's. You'd think there would be a huge difference in a societies morality in a hundred years. But not so. It seems we are no better now than we were back then.

[XFBO]

Israel may very well be bullies, I dont know all the facts much like many who oppose their actions dont.

Are you suggesting Israel has been 'bullying' Palestine for no good reason?
Do they just lob over missles indiscriminately to Gaza?
When was the last Israeli who strapped a bomb to themselves at a Palestinian shop?

Wanna know what's truly sad?
If ppl of this great nation cant understand the problems over there then how does anyone ever expect the Palestinians to?
Has Hamas finally agreed that Israel has a right to exist?

[Gog]

Originally Posted by XFBO

Has Hamas finally agreed that Israel has a right to exist?

That would be smart of them now.
I am a supporter of Jewish rights however... I am losing my patience and respect...rapidly.
Why all the long term bullshit over "holy stones" and "holy relics"? Only a lame ass, jack off would put more love into a pile of rocks than a "babe in arms". Only a narrow minded fvck arse would want to move into a spot that clearly isnt owned and 'clearly' a place where; one is NOT wanted, wished for or welcomed.. in fact, hated!
This world has enough space for all and methinks God didnt create rocks and trees for us to engage in apocalyptic, self righteous practices...

[RockyMt]

First of all "Palestinians" aren't either a race OR am nationality, they were invented as a way to name a bunch of refugees (originally nomadic tribes) who decided AFTER the UN provided the Jews with land to become the state of Israel, that they wanted "their" space also. If everyone is so interested in giving them a homeland, how 'bout carving a chunk outa Egypt? For all the winging about big bad Israel, imaginge the middle east right now WITHOUT them there.......Look at what they've done with that desolate patch of dirt in 60 years, their "neighbors" have been there 5000 years and still live in caves....... When "palestinians" (actually Iranians w/ scarves on) stop lobbing missles and suicide bombers over the border, you'll see a de-escalation in return fire.

-Rocky-

[Gog]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

First of all "Palestinians" aren't either a race OR am nationality,

They ARE a nationality... Jews arent a race either. What's your point?

they were invented as a way to name a bunch of refugees (originally nomadic tribes)

Sounds like Israel and it's "wanderers".

who decided AFTER the UN provided the Jews with land to become the state of Israel, that they wanted "their" space also.

You mean they gave it up and then decided they wanted it back?

If everyone is so interested in giving them a homeland, how 'bout carving a chunk outa Egypt?

Why didnt that happen originally? Give Israel some of Egypt?


For all the winging about big bad Israel, imagine the middle east right now WITHOUT them there.......

Ya... not hard to do, actually sounds peaceful.

Look at what they've done with that desolate patch of dirt in 60 years,

Thats called HOME to those who lived there before their land was "carved up"...
their "neighbors" have been there 5000 years and still live in caves.......

Do you know where the Jews were 5000 years ago?

When "Palestinians" (actually Iranians w/ scarves on) stop lobbing missles and suicide bombers over the border, you'll see a de-escalation in return fire.

Deescalation into the old domination, aggression, expansionism and dictatorship over the Palestinians?

-Rocky-

Really Rocky, I thought you'd be more in tune with the hearts of the oppressed and the invaded. I thought you'd be first to question your beliefs after the 8 years of Bush lies and wrong doings. Thought you might, at least, carry the same sob story claimed by you and Bush tre: the "noble" Iraqis needing rescue from big, bad Saddam.... a regime change I think you called it.

[RockyMt]

The "regime change" needed in Palestine is getting rid of terrorists who've hijacked the peoples needs for 20+ years, starting with that douchebag Arafat, and continuing on to Hammas and the PLO. They've ALL taken the international donations and pocketed them and/or used them to arm themselves, meanwhile, Lebannon,Syria, Iran et-al are using them as a launching pad to terrorize Israel while hiding behind women and children. The best thing that could happen is for Israel (with our blessing) nukes Iran and gets it over with!

-Rocky-

[Gog]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

The "regime change" needed in Palestine is getting rid of terrorists who've hijacked the peoples needs for 20+ years, starting with that douchebag Arafat, and continuing on to Hammas and the PLO. They've ALL taken the international donations and pocketed them and/or used them to arm themselves, meanwhile, Lebannon,Syria, Iran et-al are using them as a launching pad to terrorize Israel while hiding behind women and children. The best thing that could happen is for Israel (with our blessing) nukes Iran and gets it over with!

-Rocky-

Ah, the right wing human hate machine!
Only an imbecile would wish for the use of nuclear weapons. That's the type of moronic mindset that cost America "almost" everything. I suppose you have no concept of wind flow, water currents, staying power or people's resolve to avenge a wrong doing. What is it about the right wing mind that wants to keep us in danger, ignore reality and provoke the gods?
I suppose; if other countries chimed in with their nuclear response to your suggestion, we could finish off the planet with Russia and America having their right wing say. Maybe thats OK with a ding-a-ling... if they feel they have the last say....
Scary to think of an entire administration feeling they want to nuke their way out of the world's conflicts!

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Gog

That would be smart of them now.
It would but they havent nor will they.

I am a supporter of Jewish rights however... I am losing my patience and respect...rapidly.
And who's fault is that? Think about it, just about all the countries surrounding them doesnt think they should exist.

Why all the long term bullshit over "holy stones" and "holy relics"? Only a lame ass, jack off would put more love into a pile of rocks than a "babe in arms".
I dont necessarily disagree but to each there own, the imbeciles need to learn how to coexist. Plenty will disagree with what I say but fvck'em. Coexisting is NOT an option until radical muslims are eradicated from the earth and children there are taught to accept different faiths/cultures. Im far from being an Israel sympathizer butit's not like they've made bold remarks about a country being wiped off the face of the earth or sent in suicide bombers.

Only a narrow minded fvck arse would want to move into a spot that clearly isnt owned and 'clearly' a place where; one is NOT wanted, wished for or welcomed.. in fact, hated!
Not sure if not being wanted is a reason for someone being pushed out....Heck we're not too fond of Canadians but we're not stuck on pushing you guys into the ocean.

This world has enough space for all and methinks God didnt create rocks and trees for us to engage in apocalyptic, self righteous practices...

Agreed.....now if the ppl stuck in the stone age would accept that we'd probably have less conflict.

What I dont get are all the ppl who sympathize for the Palestinians saying crap like if it wasnt for the blockades, the ppl there are starving, etc..... this wouldnt be happening. That is a crock of BS if I ever heard some, if they can smuggle in missles, bombs and artillary wtf cant they bring in human aide? I'll answer, cuz a very large portion of them are NOT peaceful ppl.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by XFBO

Israel may very well be bullies, I dont know all the facts much like many who oppose their actions dont.

Are you suggesting Israel has been 'bullying' Palestine for no good reason?
Do they just lob over missles indiscriminately to Gaza?
When was the last Israeli who strapped a bomb to themselves at a Palestinian shop?

Wanna know what's truly sad?
If ppl of this great nation cant understand the problems over there then how does anyone ever expect the Palestinians to?
Has Hamas finally agreed that Israel has a right to exist?

We are looking at two different things. I'm looking at the beginnings of Israel and the continuation of their systematic approach at stealing other's land over the last fifty+ years. You're looking at what Palestinians are known for by the general public, suicide bombings, etc. I see the Palestinians as fighting back the only way they can - they don't have F-15's. It's an ugly way to operate but civilians have always been in the crosshairs no matter which conflict, intended or not. I consider the "militants" (don't you just love the way the media protrays it - just like the Isreali lobby wants it to?) freedom fighters more than terrorists. Sorry everyone, that's just the way I see it and I don't have anything against Jews or whatever. I think the Palestinians have gotten a very raw deal and it pisses me off to no end that my tax money goes to Israel.

By the way, a smart bomb practically levels an entire block or more of those poorly constructed buildings. They are far more destructive and often more deadly than a suicide bomber is. Israel is pulling the wool over the eyes of the American public about their selective targeting. In fact I don't think we can believe anything they tell us any more than we can believe Hamas or Hezbollah. I say pull all support from Israel and stop them from shifting the blame for their immorality onto us. They have been using us like we are idiots.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

The "regime change" needed in Palestine is getting rid of terrorists who've hijacked the peoples needs for 20+ years, starting with that douchebag Arafat, and continuing on to Hammas and the PLO. They've ALL taken the international donations and pocketed them and/or used them to arm themselves, meanwhile, Lebannon,Syria, Iran et-al are using them as a launching pad to terrorize Israel while hiding behind women and children. The best thing that could happen is for Israel (with our blessing) nukes Iran and gets it over with!

-Rocky-

You're right about them "pocketing", etc. But you're wrong about nuking Iran ending it. It will never end because there are too many Arabs in too many countries and they've been screwed royally for a long time by a relatively small number of people who are of a different culture and religion. People in that part of the world don't just give up when it comes to personal grudges. This will not end until Isreal either ceases to exist or, if they are very lucky, they give back a lot of land and somehow kiss enough asses to placate the people they've wronged. There is just too much bad water under the bridge at this point to hope for anything better. That's my opinion.

Also, we had better start thinking long and hard about what our future is in Afghanistan and Iraq. Those issues will not be solved no matter what we do and no matter what the current trend is. It's just too easy for one person to blend into the public and do their evil deed while it is incredibly expensive and deadly to run a war machine in opposition...and for what? It ain't worth it. Attacking a training camp who's intended purpose is to attack us is another story. That is always something worth destroying. But we will never end the problem the way we are going about it. The only way to end it is to dry up their motivation. The saddest thing is that a lot of people are going to suffer under thugs like the Taliban when we finally face reality. If we continue to follow Israel's lead we will be in their shoes fifty years from now.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by RockyMt

First of all "Palestinians" aren't either a race OR am nationality, they were invented as a way to name a bunch of refugees (originally nomadic tribes) who decided AFTER the UN provided the Jews with land to become the state of Israel, that they wanted "their" space also. If everyone is so interested in giving them a homeland, how 'bout carving a chunk outa Egypt? For all the winging about big bad Israel, imaginge the middle east right now WITHOUT them there.......Look at what they've done with that desolate patch of dirt in 60 years, their "neighbors" have been there 5000 years and still live in caves....... When "palestinians" (actually Iranians w/ scarves on) stop lobbing missles and suicide bombers over the border, you'll see a de-escalation in return fire.

-Rocky-

You're still full of, with all due respect , crap, Rock.

Since when is it the U.N.'s right to decide the borders of a new country when the people who currently live their do not accept the terms? When you agree with the outcome? In practically every other instance I'll bet both nuts that you despise the U.N., just like I do. How selective you are.

The people who Israel landed on had their space until the Zionist movement came along. You just like the people who took the land more than you like the poeple who had the land, apparently.

You're bright idea about simply moving the Palestinians off to Egypt shows your stripes. How would you like Putin, for instance, to decide that you need to move off to Detroit? You'd fight like the Dickens and so would I. The U.N., or anyone else does not have that right, nor the right to suddenly declare the existance of Isreal.

And then there is the very old, very stale arguement about how prosperous the Isrealis are compared to the Palestinians. I don't think anyone would argue that point but how in the hell is that a justification for what has happened? It is laughable to anyone with any sense of justice.

Newsflash! They don't live in caves. God, it's the same old racist rhetoric, over and over.

When, or if, missiles stop being lobbed over the border what you will see is the same old shit. Israel will continue to condemn the houses of Palestinians withing it's borders, will tear down those houses, tear out Palestinian orchards, do all their other dastardly handywork, and force yet more Palestinians into refugee camps so that Israel can continue to solidfy it's position. They just take, take, take. That is the very reason that the missiles should not and will not stop. Sadly, eventually we will see WMD's used because they are the only effective option against the Israeli machine. We can expect the same.

I'm not at all sure that what you stand for is what the founders had in mind for the future of the world.

[Camel Jockey]

I admit I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but didn't anyone mention Uncle Tom, you know he's behind this and the Hamas. If you think Hamas is acting alone and not backed by Iran you are crazy. Hezbollah and Hamas are simply pawns of that ass clown.
The real palestinians are being betrayed by the moron terrorist groups, they all need to go down hard, they are firing rockets out of schools, homes, etc. with civilian areas, and then they cry about how many are dying. Dummy, stop lobbing missles over the border, and you MIGHT have peace, and less death. i don't care how you are living, lauching rockets will not help against Israel. They do have an air force and an army right, Hello!!
Hamas is 100% at fault, as was Hezbollah last year when they kidnapped Israelis. Syria and Iran are to blame, and this will never end, that's the real story.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Area 51

We are looking at two different things. I'm looking at the beginnings of Israel and the continuation of their systematic approach at stealing other's land over the last fifty+ years. You're looking at what Palestinians are known for by the general public, suicide bombings, etc. I see the Palestinians as fighting back the only way they can - they don't have F-15's. It's an ugly way to operate but civilians have always been in the crosshairs no matter which conflict, intended or not. I consider the "militants" (don't you just love the way the media protrays it - just like the Isreali lobby wants it to?) freedom fighters more than terrorists. Sorry everyone, that's just the way I see it and I don't have anything against Jews or whatever. I think the Palestinians have gotten a very raw deal and it pisses me off to no end that my tax money goes to Israel.
I suppose if Arafat didnt bilk his own ppl of over $1 Billion dollars there wouldnt be starving families living in dilapidated buildings eh?
As shitty as that is you cant blame Israel for that.........also how is it they can pay for missles but not their own infastructure and survival?

By the way, a smart bomb practically levels an entire block or more of those poorly constructed buildings. They are far more destructive and often more deadly than a suicide bomber is. Israel is pulling the wool over the eyes of the American public about their selective targeting.
They're pulling the wool over our eyes cuz they're better and well equipped fighters?
How's that Israels fault?
Shouldnt that be all the more reason why Hamas and Palestinians should play nice and learn to coexist?

In fact I don't think we can believe anything they tell us any more than we can believe Hamas or Hezbollah. I say pull all support from Israel and stop them from shifting the blame for their immorality onto us. They have been using us like we are idiots.

I think we've been using each other, that's usually how allies work. If you dont know Israel has shared a lot of their technology and know how with us.

A51- does Israel have a right to exist there?

[Gog]

I see some good points on both sides.

In the end, we have to stop violence and hatred or we're all toast. I am shocked at people who have deluded themselves into thinking that nuclear war is a viable option. Just the bravado that is stoked by these weapons conjures up visions of Armageddon for me.

Let's face it... if Israel doesnt find a better way, it's going to get itself nuked. It may bomb some cave dwellers back to the caveman era today but they are small gains when you consider the anniliation of a people and the waste of a future. Go ahead and pump yourselves up to a nuclear retaliation option but that, my friends, would be the beginning of the end.

We need a quantum shift in global paradigms. We need shifts in technology, sociology and spirituality and we need them NOW!

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Gog

Let's face it... if Israel doesnt find a better way

Agreed with most of your post except this.....why is the onus on Israel anymore than their neighbors who want them gone or dead?

[Gog]

Originally Posted by XFBO

Agreed with most of your post except this.....why is the onus on Israel anymore than their neighbors who want them gone or dead?

You're right, I just see Israel as the higher force with the most education, wisdom, credibility and potential. Despite the violence, I truly believe that Israel just wants to be left alone to prosper and live democratic lives. This doesnt change the fact that they were inserted into someone else's homeland.

We have learned from history that glorious armies with the technological advantage are soon desperate to enjoy a life of freedom instead of being cop and enforcer against those who have become sworn enemies because of political, financial and intellectual disparity.

I am not anti Israel but I am asking them to hold a higher standard than their enemy.

[jschmidt]

No good guy in that conflict.