I'm sure most here have heard of all the government bail-outs that are occuring. The current tab is $1.3 trillion dollars when done. Some experts claim this is close to the market collapse during the great depression. Whatever the case, you, the tax-paying citizen has become a co-owner in some very formerly prestigous financial firms. Automakers, banks and more financial firms are trying to cue up to get on the bailout list too.
Here are some of my thoughts. Firstly, I don't believe the government has any business bailing out any privately owned company. Most of these companies made trillions of dollars for their clients as little as a year ago. When these people signed up, they were informed of the risks and knew what they were walking into. Now the government steps up and says, don't worry, no risk here. If this is the case, the government should have a hand on your shoulder when you go to Vegas and lose your shirt. Further, the government claims that it can make some or a lot of the money back with these bailouts, because they will be owners of the financial vehicles that their bailing out. Has the government EVER made money on anything besides yours and my hard work? Another thing to consider is that the government is already technically out of money, so, to make this happen, because it requires real money, the fed is printing more money. This works to devalue the dollar even more. Possibly doing more harm for the average man thru inflation than can be guessed.
So what are your thoughts on all this handy work. Was this a good idea? Will things get better? What did you do with your "stimulus check"? Did you stimulate the economy?
Stimulus check? Perhaps I would have used my "rebate" money to buy more airfence, but apparently the government-types thought some crackhead who did not pay any taxes had better ideas for that money, so they gave it to him/her instead. Welfare called a rebate. Love it!
Regarding the bailouts, of course it's a terrible idea and of course it's not going to fix anything. Our government is unable to live within it's means, and our citizens are unable to live within their means. We're doomed unless both of those things change. So, we're doomed.
And, another thing: why is nobody going to jail? Why is nobody held accountable for failure anymore? If I figured out a way to steal $700 billion in taxpayer money this week, I think they'd probably charge me with something when they caught up with me. At least the Enron guys were prosecuted!
Three Questions:
1) According to the Constitution, who has the authority to implement these bailouts? Who is actually given the power to pull that trigger and write those checks?
2) Who did pull the trigger and write those checks this week?
3) Why are the answers to #1 and #2 not the same? Why does nobody care?
I agree with much in the above 2 post. I also fear the flip side if nothing had been done. I am sure that most folks view on this is directly proportional to their involvement in the markets either directly or indirectly. I agree the government has no business bailing these companies out, but my understanding is that the failure to act coulcd have led to total financial colapse.
I also think that the views of this situation can be driven by where you get your paycheck. What I mean is, I am always against government intervention in the free market as a rule. I beleive that my willingness to contratict, or at least look the other way, in this instance is driven by where I get my paycheck. I am a Custom Home Builder. I build about 5 one of a kind homes each year, and work hard to deliver an exeptional product for my clients. January 1st, with what I had on the books, it looked like it was going to be our best year ever. By the end of January, we had lost 2 clients (of 5) and by June we had lost a third. All three sited concerns about the economy. It has been a scary year, and I live in a good market. Anyway, I have been working twice as hard for half the business, and I'm gonna survive this slowdown, but as I was listening to the events of this week unfold, it scared the shit out of me.
Heres what could I happened in my little microcosm of America and still could for that matter. Potential clients who I have been working with suddenly loose huge portions of their net worth and are no longer interested in the projects which we have been planning and designing for months (sometimes, I will spend as much as 6 months in the design phase with a client before breaking ground (when I start to get paid)). Others are no longer able to find financing, because new home loans are very difficult to obtain. Go find a job then? The production housing market has slowed way down, and is not hiring. I am sure there are hundreds of senerios that others have faced that are scarey, but this is the first time I have experienced it.
So, as ashamed as I am, when I heard of the bailouts, and saw the market recover some, I breathed a sigh of relief. On Saturday, I had a meeting with a Pediatrition about building his family a new home and got very close to a much needed new project. On Tuesday, he was ready to call it of. Now there may be hope. You see, my opinions on what is happening, and my concern for my ability to provide for my family are contradictory. Also, if I look back over my voting age life, at each phase I think I would have felt differently.
For example:
College - would have been against bailing out a bunch of greedy pigs.
Corporate employee - would have been against it, but concerned about the value of my 401K
Small Businessman in difficult market - simply trying to survive a very difficult year, and willing to look the other way. Is this greed on my part. Some would say so, but in my view, it is a desire to protect my families welfare.
I don't like it though. And I am very uneasy about what is happening. And I agree with Bass, that America, and all of us, me included, have got to learn to live within our means, or we are f*cked. I believe THAT is the root of all this evil.
I've also been wrestling with this question. And of course it's true that whatever tiny space you occupy in this massive global economy will affect your opinion. I work for a small business that imports and distributes ultra-high end home electronics. Some of the custom homes you folks are building may contain a dedicated home theater or listening room, and that's my customer too. Of course, as an importer I see things from my vendor's point of view as well, and I can tell you that they're worried. What happens here in the U.S. will eventually trickle down to Europe and East Asia. So from their point of view, a government bailout to prevent a larger global economical catastrophe is justified.
However, my independent American side thinks "why the hell should I pay to bail out some bank because they practiced questionable lending and made bad decisions?"
I'm interested in hearing what you all have to say on this, and I hope we can have a rational "discussion" without too much finger pointing and political name calling. Cuz I think you're right, it's the American people as a whole and whatever government we have in place that needs to learn to live within our means.
What a heavy topic. It's going to affect al of US.
I guess people are just starting to figure out how disastrous it can be to allow bastards to subvert a government... comprehensively and repeatedly.
The final straw will be electing in the same bastards for the third time. That will crown the debacle and divert, once again, hillbilly America to the excuses for the causes of the disaster like; the evil Muslims or lazy Blacks, the free market decline, evil liberals, gays blacks blah.
John McCain will bail out oil companies... dont think so.. of course you dont.
I am blown away by the lack of responsibility taken by conservative America. Blame and more blame but nary a shred of shame. Trillion dollar wars, combined with trillion dollar bailouts, have massive tentacles that, after the fact, become slithering, slimy dangers in expensive, complicated ways. Too complicated for the same hillbillies, who made, CAUSED AND EXACERBATED the situation, to fix. I think it was Eisenhower who said dont let the same bitches try to fix the problems they created. What does hillbilly America do? Elect GWB again! wow staggering. Now they are posed to do it again. Nooooo!
OK America is broke.. at least it has a broke back. Bush, en route to the shredders with the American Constitution.
So, faced with more of the same(or worse) what are ya going to do? Keep whining that liberals suck? Find new boogey men? Keep making racist comments or giving the green light to those who do so? Call the others names? Make excuses for your derelict voting decisions? Blame others? Oh, how about start a war? Prolly all the above.
Using sports as an analogy, I look at Stewart spitting whooping his competition, I see Tiger Woods doing the same, the list goes on. Guess what, some of the best EVER at a sport have been the ones who were, shortly beforehand, forbidden to be a part of that sport. I cant imagine golf being the same after Tiger, basketball being the same after Jordan etc. Same goes here folks, you have a natural born leader, ready to git her done. But, oh no.. he's half black! A black man stole my bike when I was a kid so I'm not electing a thief to the white house. Ra Ra Phil Nickleson. The people who would support this ARE the ones who caused your economic, cultural and constitutional downfall. If the best man/woman is not picked because the kiddies in charge were raised as racists... you get Bush & Co.
Lets look at the alternative. Even though you(America) cannot afford doodley squat right now, you are considering hiring two people who scream war on every exhale, sleep with billionaires, court, lobbyists and want more of GWB's policies! WOW another staggering failure to conceptualize your situation. . This lunacy is why America is broke and completely disrespected, plain and simple. The thought of a hockey mom screeching her dingaling religion to the world is downright embarrassing. Pathetic and inexcusable. The thought of putting such low ballers into the White House... gag. It's sooo dangerous and insulting to put a person into the white house for reasons like "I can see Russia from where I live".
If you dont know the real meaning of a hockey(soccer) mom I'll tell ya, Having oodles of experience, you dont want to know one unless she's your mom. Arrogant, conceited, selfish and, generally mean spirited. The game of hockey means less to them than revenge, advantage, positions and $$$. This is Sarah Palin. Thats not even addressing the bullshit of the rapture and talking to god rubbish. God will fix the US? GWB taught wing dingers a valuable lesson... they are NOT there to help you, they dont a ANYTHING to do with Jesus, they wont really champion your causes... they are there for power, glory and profit. They are totally un Christian, murderous hypocrites. ... period. If the liberals are... they ARE! That doesnt change the fact that the right wing FAILED!!!!
Pick the smarter man or suffer the end of America the beautiful. 8^ (
What does all that have to do with the economy? DO the math. You cannot afford to put in people who said, last week, "The fundamentals of the US economy are strong". You cannot afford the bullshit that followed with Union hating right wingers saying he meant the American worker is strong. Insulting. Well, why outsource every last facking job in America? Why trade with anti Christian, non Democratic sacks of shit governments? Some have your graces and some dont(for nefarious, evil reasons)... somewhere in between is the massive profit quotient. Why trade with Union busting countries? Shouldn't others be allowed to have their work force stroong without American profiteers making wars and killings for money and slaughters and pilfering for capitalism and religions ****ery? (Why not punish people who do these wrongs? (unless you're for them). Like the ignorant racists that blabbers his hateful pride here, on another thread, you guys just silently support his racism? Can we draw some parallels to the nod you gave Bush & Co.? Wow, she spoke at the Republican Convention, woohooo she got a standing ovation. How expensive is it to complete an agenda like this?
If you think anyone will be held accountable for crimes against the US constitution, think of the ultra slimey Scooter Libby.... um, no they wont. His shit eating grin is on the face of all the ****ers who helped themselves to Americas coffers under the guiding tutelage and secret menu of McCain, Bush, blah blah blah.
All that is separate from the long and stunning list of other failures you guys have voted for. Now you have your chance to punish your party for its failings(I voter Green to punish my long lost liberal party), support the smartest guy/girl, force some shake up, and send a message of unity not seen since GWB's first year in office(when he looked like he might have a clue). Your party cant recover unless it is sent a clear message... by you! It's a lot to ask the right wing to forget about hating blacks, gays, liberals, the poor and the unhealthy. I think I saw 3 black men, one Latino, one Chinese and one wheelchair at the republican national convention.
I just read a fascinating psychological review, as a matter of fact, many psychological studies have clearly illustrated that most right wing conservatives are very fear filled, closed minded and rather selfish people. Thats a fact and I dont need a god damned graph, research paper or demonstration to know what I see and experience with conservative ideology. It's horrifying to me. The best people are usually looked over because they are "different" or "non-members). You know, Chinese or Russian styled government(nepotism, elitism etc. etc. How Ironic that the most awful government to ever disgrace America can makes calls of war and hate to others and generate and perpetuate more failure, segregation, fear, ignorance and push us to the brink with their sheer stupidity. Just to get a toxic substance out of their ground. Just to spread corrupted democracy and inverted Christianity around the world... pew...ke.
Like some jack Yank coming on here and spewing hate for blacks, he gets not one chastisement from any right wingers, you have to have liberals to take that kind of higher, fairer, smarter position. That higher ground is perceived as weakness by right wingers. I challenge you to tell us how GWB punished anyone in is debacle of a government.
If you read your history you will see that the Spartans and the Athenians laid it all out for us to learn from.... OH no, cut education and the next thing you know, idiots cant read. When idiots cant read they cant learn their history. When people dont learn their history we get anti democratic, secret society arse fuks like George Bush & company setting us back thousands of years.... sigh.
Your economy is courtesy of trickle up and peon policies you support... Sow what? This is going to be your bitterest harvest yet...
PuLease dont claim that this government is not resposible.
The whole problem with the economy is not enough sex. The women aren't putting out enough so the guys are all upset and not working hard enough. If they would start putting out more, the guys would work harder, bring home more money due to overtime, give to the women who then go out and spend it in clothes, who those people who run those shop in turn make more money and then they take it hope and the circle continues. Some accidents are bound to happen which means while have more kids, which equals more clothes being sold, baby food, etc, etc. So you can see it all comes down to humping.
(I actually wrote a college paper on this for my economics class - while the professor loved it he didn't think it was politically correct).
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Current Ride:
2006 Ducati 999S Mono in black.
zen,
u build homes in the metroplex ? customs ? what size ? I build in frisco - plano -mckinney area. tougher now than in 25 years !
Hey Nero. I grew up in Plano, graduated from Plano High in 84. I build in Mansfield, Arlington, Burleson. Focus on custom build jobs between 500,000 to 1.5 million. What is getting us right now is the fall out rate. Families deciding they just need to hunker down right now rather that build a new home. Most of my clients are local and most of our business is word of mouth through projects we've done in the past. We're gonna survive it, but it's a character building year.
Let me further stir the pot a bit. Firstly, a little history on myself. Though I no longer work in a industry that is directly influenced by the economic going-ons, it will still affect me, sooner or later, or already has. When I was much younger I worked in the mortgage industry, where I worked on both the aftermarket and the front end. In that experience I know what happens to mortgages on both sides. I have seen the market have huge downturns twice already. I still have friends and family that work in that industry. By work, I mean, that's their profession but most have been out of work from anywhere from a year to six months.
I realize that the total collapse of the financial markets would have devastating results for many, many people. But, I feel it needs to happen. The writting for all of this to occur has been on the wall for almost twenty years. There have already been two major kneejerks in the mortgage market before this one. Fortunately, in those instances, the rates could be adjusted downwards and people were able to refinance their way out of financial catastrophe. Sadly, no one learned a lesson and things continued on as before.
Personally speaking, I work freelance, so I am self-employed as well. When I started a long term job (most only last a few months) that would go for years, people asked "are you gonna buy a house". The answer was "No!" I knew that paying $3/4 million dollars for a fancied up outhouse was way to much money in the L.A. market and that things would HAVE to turn down.
That, is really the whole point of all this. The economy has a pulse, much like a wave. What goes up, has to come down. You can't keep going up for ever. There will always be "adjustments". These work not only to reign in poor decision making and mismanagement, but to maybe change things for a better or new way of looking at things. When you add a quick band aid fix for things, such as what happened. You are essentially prolonging and therefore making the true consequences of something even worse. Case in point is the mortgage crisis. In the early 90's there was a huge downturn in the mortgage industry, similar in scope to the current situation. Depending on where you lived this was short lived or longer (in L.A. it took almost six years to recover due to the earthquake.) The answer was to lower rates and this eventually fixed things into a recovery. Back then you could buy a decent home in a decent area for around $200K, 5 years later, that home skirted close to a million dollars. That should have been a warning that things were spiralling into a bad place. Back then people talked about the "real estate bubble", but, nobody listened.
You can try to turn this into a Bush-bashing session, however, both parties are to blame and both parties are responsible. It was after all a democratically led banking committee that started the bail out. Further, historically, both parties have been at the helm when this whole vicious cycle started nearly 20 years ago.
I posture that this collapse should have been allowed to happen. Things needed to change and it is only thru great turmoil that people can find other ways of doing things. Those of you that have been severly impacted by all of this, I feel bad for you, but, having had great success in the past should assure you of success in the future, you may just have to come up with a newer, better way of doing things. I would also say people need to be fired. From the top down. That means senators, congress-people, bank owners and managers. The whole dirty bunch needs to be stripped and tossed out.
Of course, this requires people are able to assess this situation correctly. And that requires that people can think independently of the bs that the government or media spews forth. It requires people to look beyond party lines and rhetoric and look at the situation fully and completely. I doubt this can happen, since many people just are no longer capable of this due to the massive cuts in education that have been going on for the last 30 or more years. Why worry about changing things, when you can have someone do it for you? And with no accountability what-so-ever, things are looking great. Blame the other guy, that is all that you need to do.
I hope the bailout works long term. But at this point it is too hard to guess. My first instinct is that it won't. Because you are merely treating the symptoms not the actual disease. This may only delay the inevitable and may make that even worse when it happens. Anyone got a wheelbarrow for my money when I need to buy some bread?
The whole problem with the economy is not enough sex. The women aren't putting out enough so the guys are all upset and not working hard enough. If they would start putting out more, the guys would work harder, bring home more money due to overtime, give to the women who then go out and spend it in clothes, who those people who run those shop in turn make more money and then they take it hope and the circle continues. Some accidents are bound to happen which means while have more kids, which equals more clothes being sold, baby food, etc, etc. So you can see it all comes down to humping.
(I actually wrote a college paper on this for my economics class - while the professor loved it he didn't think it was politically correct).
I am doing my best! I am positively rabbit and minky with my GF and yet, my stocks decline!!!! I'm gonna have to call you on this one!
Help me out Doc. I ride her everyday for 1-3 hours. She loves curves as much as I do. I go through tons of rubbers. I dont mind the chain. I even let my friends ride her cuz she's such a good sport...
I've been wrestling with this one too and I believe this article has been the most inciteful and has the best remedies for preventing a repeat of our recent meltdown. This bailout will hurt the U.S. dollar and it looks a lot like what Japan did in their 80's carbon-copy of our real estate mess. The result? Their banks horded the money instead of lending it out, resulting in a decade long recession.
Help me out Doc. I ride her everyday for 1-3 hours. She loves curves as much as I do. I go through tons of rubbers. I dont mind the chain. I even let my friends ride her cuz she's such a good sport...
She needs MONEY and lots of it! Get some carbon fiber, light weight wheels, slipper clutch, brembo brakes, ohlins forks.
If Larry was giving the advice he would point out her birth defect as your problem - she's an inline 4.
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Current Ride:
2006 Ducati 999S Mono in black.
HONESTLY, do you think Obama would be in the position he's in today (running with a legitimate chance of being elected president) if he WASN'T black?
Contrary to what you "think" everyone who doesn't drink the socialist cool-aide isn't a "hillbilly" nor is everyone who votes against Obama "racist", Seem's like your prejudices are showing you white hater you! How's it feel to be typecast by someone you don't even know based on things that aren't even true? I don't fear Obama being elected, I fear the inevitable backlash when some dingbat takes him out, (probably unfortunately based on his skin color) and tens of thousands of low life dregs of society who think "the Man" has done 'em wrong, decide to take whatever they want based on their twisted feelings of "victimhood" But like they say people who live in glass houses shouldn't walk around spankin' their monkey, so work on your french (note intentional small "f") separatists before lecturing us on our ills.
-Rocky-
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ROCKYMT
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
HONESTLY, do you think Obama would be in the position he's in today (running with a legitimate chance of being elected president) if he WASN'T black? There is an element of truth to that..OK, same could be said of McCain.
Contrary to what you "think" everyone who doesn't drink the socialist cool-aide isn't a "hillbilly" nor is everyone who votes against Obama "racist", Seem's like your prejudices are showing you white hater you! Haha, I just hate NeoCons dude, white, rich, arrogant, incompetent, fear filled, greedy, ignorant, color/class coded, narrow minded, Jesus hijacking arse wipes from hell.
How's it feel to be typecast by someone you don't even know based on things that aren't even true? I don't fear Obama being elected, I fear the inevitable backlash when some dingbat takes him out, I hope that doesn't happen to either of them.
(probably unfortunately based on his skin color) and tens of thousands of low life dregs of society who think "the Man" has done 'em wrong, decide to take whatever they want based on their twisted feelings of "victimhood" You have more chance being harmed by the mistakes and secret agenda of Mr. GW Bush & Co. You must see this, surely.You must not have any black friends because you harbor the strangest ideas of "them"."Them" the blacks, "Them" the liberals, "Them" the poor. The problem with people labeling those as "them" is this: The list grows... next thing you know its the gays, pinkos, commies, liberals, jews, punks, students, saucy people, sick people, red haired people.......
But like they say people who live in glass houses shouldn't walk around spankin' their monkey, so work on your french (note intentional small "f") separatists before lecturing us on our ills.
-Rocky-
HONESTLY, do you think Obama would be in the position he's in today (running with a legitimate chance of being elected president) if he WASN'T black?
Obama comes from a black district, McCain comes from a white district. That's the only racial significance to their rise in power. You couldn't possibly be thinking that white liberals are voting for Obama BECAUSE he is black, could you? Are you so absolutely obsessed with race?
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
No but clearly MANY people ARE. What I'm saying is with his complete lack of experence, but with ALL the same credentials, do you REALLY think he'd be where he is so quickly, SERIOUSLY? He was being groomed for this during the last election cycle 4 years ago, (remember his speach at the Dems convention?) And you reply plays into my point, why whenever his abilitys are called into question, the reponse is always the same, "what, are you RACIST? Is it because he's BLACK?!" No as a matter of fact I'm not, but the more you try and defend yourself against that statement the worse you end up sounding. Actually, I would have no problem voting for Conde Rice, but she's too smart to run!
-Rocky-
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ROCKYMT
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
The Economy
Ra Ra Phil Nickleson. The people who would support this ARE the ones who caused your economic, cultural and constitutional downfall. If the best man/woman is not picked because the kiddies in charge were raised as racists... you get Bush & Co. 
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