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post #21 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 03:04 AM Thread Starter
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I began the thread not by denying that global warming is occurring . But rather, by asking how many believe man is the reason. I think this entire debate ''boils'' (pardon the pun) down to this. Even the authors don't deny this warming trend.
But the logical arguments presented make sense .
Many on the ideological left insult, seek to silence debaters and I've heard recently they've even toyed with idea of trying to criminalize deniers. Equating such with Holocaust deniers . See Lord Monckton.
I think this is an interesting topic full of more than just research data.
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post #22 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nero
I began the thread not by denying that global warming is occurring . But rather, by asking how many believe man is the reason. I think this entire debate ''boils'' (pardon the pun) down to this. Even the authors don't deny this warming trend.
But the logical arguments presented make sense .
Many on the ideological left insult, seek to silence debaters and I've heard recently they've even toyed with idea of trying to criminalize deniers. Equating such with Holocaust deniers . See Lord Monckton.
I think this is an interesting topic full of more than just research data.
I just feel the air has to be cleared of obvious propaganda spin BS before the debate can begin.

There is so many sound bites out there that people take as gospel without second guessing it, there is natural occurring gasses that naturally cause greenhouse effect, we are not the only ones doing this, the only thing is we are unbalancing the natural balance of CO2 and O2, we are tipping the scales way over with breeding billions of cows and burning fossil fuels at a alarming rate, I wouldn't care so much if I had a choice of a electric cars to choose from, but that got squashed by big oil as well.-"Who Killed The Electric Car" Documentary: new release at your local video store.

Everyone wouldn't be in such a rage if the public had a choice of the type of vehicles we drive, the source of energy we use ect. ect.
Be we are all enslaved by what big oil says we can and cannot have using it's billions of dollars to crush any new companies threatening it's business, or to buy out auto manufacturers and EPA officials...




That book you quoted earlier may have a few accepted theories, but the point of that book is to put out the fossil fuel fire, I'm all for opposing theories, but this isn't a healthy opposing theory, it is a deliberate tool of deception that is spun to the public by billion dollar corporations to pull the wool over our eyes, there is a very good chance we may seriously regret not doing anything , or even trying.
If we are responsible for only 10% of the greenhouse gasses, then maybe we should try and make that 5%, I don't like the "well, we cannot do anything about it so buy a SUV" attitude, it doesn't make sense.

Not to mention that "unmeltable ice" in the Antarctica is breaking off and floating toward the equator and melting fresh water into the saltwater ocean.
I know if the Greenland ice sheets dumps into the ocean it will stop the gulf stream flow in the ocean putting Europe and Eastern America into a ice age.

So this talk of warmer climates being better is BS, if that gulf stream stops flowing like it did when the now great lakes dumped fresh water into the ocean stopping the gulf stream years ago causing a 900 year ice age in Europe and Eastern America.

Figuring 80% of the worlds farmland will be unusable, the 6 billion now, estimated to be 8 billion people around 2026 when this is theorized to happen will be devastated when the world as we know it now can support 12 billion, will only be able to support 2 billions after the gulf stream stops.

That means 6 billion people (the worlds population we have now) will have to starve to death.- information I am using is from "The Inconvenient Truth"


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post #23 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 05:37 AM
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This story in Newsweek will help with the - "I just feel the air has to be cleared of obvious propaganda spin BS before the debate can begin."

And the Newsweek story should be read by all because we know that - "this talk of warmer climates being better is BS, if that gulf stream stops flowing like it did when the now great lakes dumped fresh water into the ocean stopping the gulf stream years ago causing a 900 year ice age in Europe and Eastern America."

It's seriously important to read the Newsweek article because - "Figuring 80% of the worlds farmland will be unusable, the 6 billion now, estimated to be 8 billion people around 2026 when this is theorized to happen will be devastated when the world as we know it now can support 12 billion, will only be able to support 2 billions after the gulf stream stops."

Newsweek is a reliable source and we all know how serious this problem is - "That means 6 billion people (the worlds population we have now) will have to starve to death."

Al Gore knows about these things so that's all I need to know, that and the Newsweek article which outlines how serious this problem is - "information I am using is from "The Inconvenient Truth"

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post #24 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 09:41 AM
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Dan, and your point is...?

Nero, I don't think its just the "Ideological left" who are concerned. Sure, some loonies or extremists use the Global Warming threat as a launching pad for their anti-capitalist propaganda, but the reality of climate change is just outside your door, and I have never heard ANY of the "Left" attempt to silence debate, although they don't seem to have a lot of time for the "Holocaust/Global Warming" deniers, thats true...
If you research a bit more, you will find some pretty interesting data, comparing pre-industrial society with current emmission levels, and the core drilling sample examinations from the Antarctic and Arctic polar caps which are yeilding a complete climatic history of the last few million years of the Earth.
Greenhouse gases do occur naturally, and the heating and cooling of the planet is a natural phenomenon, but nature never detonated airburst atomic bombs in great profusion before, or created so much CO2 and methane pollution, or destroyed the rainforest lungs of the planet with such avid glee. We'll leave out the smoke and fires of the last few hundred years of human warfare, because volcanic eruptions and lightning-started bush fires have vaguely similar effects. Perhaps not in such joyous profusion, but you get the idea.

The real issue of global warming was only recently examined seriously,(apart from the visionaries like Greenpeace, who knew and understood before any of us..) and has only in the last twenty years been given the means to truly understand what is going on, and how best to reverse, stall, or transform the process. To deny that Humankind is the current, largest, single cause of current climate change is to deny all the species on the planet a future.
We can't hop off the planet and go live on another, we can't go back in time, all we can do is insist that everyone becomes as aware as possible about what is really happening, and informed enough to ensure that the next generations leaders are not in the thrall of oil companies or ideologically-challenged idiots, and try in their own small way to undo some of the damage....

Boom-boom and Rigor, so I talk out my ass, eh? Well, refute with something more evolved, like fact or discourse. Maybe you don't like what I say because maybe it could be right. Refute it. Prove I'm wrong, instead of little idiot boy insults. This issue concerns us all. A-L-L of us. Thats you and me. Same boat. Sink or swim.
Enjoy the turkey.
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post #25 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 04:16 PM
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When I was 12 yrs old I remember my science teacher telling the class that by yr 2000, NJ would have Florida-like weather due to global warming. That was 27 yrs ago. IMO, just like many other aspects of life, weather has it's peaks and valleys.

What amazes me is how the very same people who mock the existence of God (you know, the show me proof ppl) are the very same ppl who will grasp the words of just about any scientist and take his/their word as bond. As Dan's link shows, all these climatic threats have been in existence for a very long time and we're all still here and prospering in just about all facets of life.

The sky isnt falling folks!

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post #26 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 05:12 PM
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XFBO, one of the big problems is not that cooler or temperate areas will suddenly become "warmer", and more pleasant (and make it worth-while buying real estate in the frozen North....) that's a total misconception.

It is the increasing of the deserts and the melting of the ice-caps (with the subsequent rise of sea-level...) that creates the problems, as well as the eventual destruction of the Gulf Stream, not to mention global wind movement changes that are going to screw us up.

Do you remember when you were a kid the clear, distinct, 4 seasons we used to have ? It doesn't matter where in the World you are, I'm sure everyone can remember those long, balmy Summers, the crisp, cold Winters.
Today I went for a walk, (have to shake off the turkey...) It's the second day of Winter here, and birds are only JUST starting to migrate. Spring flowers are pushing up in the fields, and it was a warm and sunny day, with hardly a hint of snow on any of the distant mountains. We haven't had rain for I don't know how long, and there is a water shortage looming. In Winter. This is the driest Fall and start of Winter EVER recorded here. Maybe you could put that down to "one of those natural things", but it's not JUST here, it's everywhere. All over the planet. The weather is out of control, sudden violent storms spring from nowhere, tornados and tempests hit parts of the planet that have NEVER had storms of this violence or intensity EVER before. Temperature fluctuations from day to day can be enormous ! Even places like "Hurricane Alley" are having more than their fair share of hits..

Go ask the fishermen and hunters, or the people who live with Mother Nature if they have seen strange migratory patterns, out-of-synch spawning, and weird weather patterns.

Islands are disappearing under the waves, and parts of low-land countries that have never before been troubled by flooding on such scale are getting seriously concerned. The face of our planet is changing dramatically. We are at last beginning to understand how this planet functions, because for the last few thousand years we've been driving blind, and the bodywork has taken a fair old beating, and we've lost a couple of wheels.....

Time to wake up and get this baby serviced and straightened out...getting rid of the drunk at the wheel wouldn't hurt either...:twocents

Here are a few interesting links;
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/
http://www.nwf.org
http://ucsusa.org/ucsglobal_warming/science/Fingerprints.html

Last edited by Le Kiwi; 12-25-2006 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Link to NASA not working..
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post #27 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 05:55 PM
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If any of the Global Warming Due To Human Activity people would take a moment to look at Solar Output they'd see that the SUN is the primary cause of Earth's increased temperature. And the SUN will be the primary cause of the Earth's decrease in temperature. It's a normal cycle.

Lots of Junk Science in the Global Warming arena yet some would support immediate action ( ...Time to wake up and get this baby serviced and straightened out...) even though there is no immediate action which will reduce the temperature of Earth.


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post #28 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 06:38 PM
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Dan, you use sources like Milloy, and your credibility drops way off the scale.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...even_J._Milloy


Try looking at the data from NASA. Or anyone else with credibility. (That usually means people who aren't lining their own pockets by shilling for big industry....)

What's your problem with accepting that Humanity has been a major affect on climate change which is NOT A NORMAL PART OF A PLANETARY WEATHER SYSTEM ???
Solar flares, electromagnetic storms, comets and what have you are natural phenomena, sometimes having enormous effects on the planet. Detonating atom bombs in the atmosphere and cutting down the rain forests for fat, farting cattle to feed fat, farting sedentary ignorant people who bred like wildfire against all natural checks and balances, I'm sorry, Dan, but that doesn't strike me as a "Natural climate model".

We broke it, and I hope it's not too late to fix it, but the fixing has to start soon, like NOW.

Denying Global Warming exists is like a man in a burning house denying that his home is burning. Very Monty Python'ish.
Alarmed bystander "Hey, Your house is burning !"
Man in house "No it isn't."
AB "Yes, it is !! Do you want a hand to put it out ?"
MIH "It's not burning, and I'm all right, Jack."
AB "It bloody well is burning, can't you smell the smoke and feel the flames ? Look around you !!!"
MIH " The house is not on fire and I'm perfectly all righ......erk"


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post #29 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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le kiwi,
You appear to be ready to dismiss critics with a mere ''wave of your hand''.
I do listen to the ''Gore'' side , but mostly what I hear from them is ''we're right, don't argue w/ us''.
Is that science ?
I believe these warming-cooling cycles are normal for Earth. Indeed, perhaps even designed into the planet. How can we argue with multiple & confirming ice core and sea shell strata sampling ?
These samplings confirm cycling back at least 250k years. Why would we believe those who say it's mankinds doing.
I do believe it would benefit us to hurry along with fusion (30-50 years) and electric or H-cell cars. But not like the kyoto protocol's ''forced march''.
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post #30 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
Dan, and your point is...?

Nero, I don't think its just the "Ideological left" who are concerned. Sure, some loonies or extremists use the Global Warming threat as a launching pad for their anti-capitalist propaganda, but the reality of climate change is just outside your door, and I have never heard ANY of the "Left" attempt to silence debate, although they don't seem to have a lot of time for the "Holocaust/Global Warming" deniers, thats true...
If you research a bit more, you will find some pretty interesting data, comparing pre-industrial society with current emmission levels, and the core drilling sample examinations from the Antarctic and Arctic polar caps which are yeilding a complete climatic history of the last few million years of the Earth.
Greenhouse gases do occur naturally, and the heating and cooling of the planet is a natural phenomenon, but nature never detonated airburst atomic bombs in great profusion before, or created so much CO2 and methane pollution, or destroyed the rainforest lungs of the planet with such avid glee. We'll leave out the smoke and fires of the last few hundred years of human warfare, because volcanic eruptions and lightning-started bush fires have vaguely similar effects. Perhaps not in such joyous profusion, but you get the idea.

The real issue of global warming was only recently examined seriously,(apart from the visionaries like Greenpeace, who knew and understood before any of us..) and has only in the last twenty years been given the means to truly understand what is going on, and how best to reverse, stall, or transform the process. To deny that Humankind is the current, largest, single cause of current climate change is to deny all the species on the planet a future.
We can't hop off the planet and go live on another, we can't go back in time, all we can do is insist that everyone becomes as aware as possible about what is really happening, and informed enough to ensure that the next generations leaders are not in the thrall of oil companies or ideologically-challenged idiots, and try in their own small way to undo some of the damage....

Boom-boom and Rigor, so I talk out my ass, eh? Well, refute with something more evolved, like fact or discourse. Maybe you don't like what I say because maybe it could be right. Refute it. Prove I'm wrong, instead of little idiot boy insults. This issue concerns us all. A-L-L of us. Thats you and me. Same boat. Sink or swim.
Enjoy the turkey.
There you have it folks....the global temp just increased one more degree......and we are having steak and lobster instead of turkey......
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post #31 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-25-2006, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nero
le kiwi,
You appear to be ready to dismiss critics with a mere ''wave of your hand''.
I do listen to the ''Gore'' side , but mostly what I hear from them is ''we're right, don't argue w/ us''.
Is that science ?
I believe these warming-cooling cycles are normal for Earth. Indeed, perhaps even designed into the planet. How can we argue with multiple & confirming ice core and sea shell strata sampling ?
These samplings confirm cycling back at least 250k years. Why would we believe those who say it's mankinds doing.
I do believe it would benefit us to hurry along with fusion (30-50 years) and electric or H-cell cars. But not like the kyoto protocol's ''forced march''.
+1

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post #32 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-26-2006, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Kiwi
Dan, you use sources like
Milloy
, and your credibility drops way off the scale.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...even_J._Milloy


Try looking at the data from NASA. Or anyone else with credibility. (That usually means people who aren't lining their own pockets by shilling for big industry....)


I don't think the bells rings any louder then that, if they can't connect the dots that all of these scientists that say "we can't do anything to our environment" are all scientist that work for Philip Morris and Exxon, then they will never have the mental fortitude to understand the effects of global warming.

I'm just glad these scientists for hire aren't telling people that cyanide is good for babies, because it seems some would buy into anything.

B.T.W. This was the first Christmas I have ever seen with no snow at all.


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post #33 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-26-2006, 01:53 AM
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Cutter,


I am in Chanhassen right now, and we have a little snow on the ground!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter
I don't think the bells rings any louder then that, if they can't connect the dots that all of these scientists that say "we can't do anything to our environment" are all scientist that work for Philip Morris and Exxon, then they will never have the mental fortitude to understand the effects of global warming.

I'm just glad these scientists for hire aren't telling people that cyanide is good for babies, because it seems some would buy into anything.

B.T.W. This was the first Christmas I have ever seen with no snow at all.
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post #34 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-26-2006, 02:39 AM
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If you discredit the scientists' findings that are funded by Exxon then you also have to question/ discredit the findings of scientists who rely on Green Peace and other environmental organizations for funding also. Research grants come to those who produce the right kind of "facts" or data not to those who bite the hand that feeds them.

Please, Please shut the **** up about big oil conspiracies to kill the planet. Their findings are no less skewed than scientists working for tree hugger money. It's only logic. Try looking at it objectively.

Green Peace does it for the right reasons. But they LIE!!!! Exxon does it for the wrong reasons. They LIE too!!! Just because the Greens have a good motive does not negate the fact that they are lying and manipulating data in the same ways that BIG BAD EVIL OIL are(oh, and stop bitching about the industry that allows you all the conveniences of modern life, Goddammit I'm tired of that shit)

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post #35 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-26-2006, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCrider51
If you discredit the scientists' findings that are funded by Exxon then you also have to question/ discredit the findings of scientists who rely on Green Peace and other environmental organizations for funding also. Research grants come to those who produce the right kind of "facts" or data not to those who bite the hand that feeds them.

Please, Please shut the **** up about big oil conspiracies to kill the planet. Their findings are no less skewed than scientists working for tree hugger money. It's only logic. Try looking at it objectively.

Green Peace does it for the right reasons. But they LIE!!!! Exxon does it for the wrong reasons. They LIE too!!! Just because the Greens have a good motive does not negate the fact that they are lying and manipulating data in the same ways that BIG BAD EVIL OIL are(oh, and stop bitching about the industry that allows you all the conveniences of modern life, Goddammit I'm tired of that shit)
WOW!

Unfortunately the short answer is he (amongst a few others) will discredit ANYONE who is 'against' (atleast in his/their mind) his/their views/culture/lifestyle....

Ive said this before and Ill say it again, if it were the amish ppl who were barking out these diatribes, there isnt much I could say cuz atleast their lifestyle doesnt really have an impact on this topic.
But every single one of these asshats who piss n moan about the 'very real' global problem who is STILL driving a car/bike or living in a home with electric/gas or oil heat are nothing more than a bunch of hypocrits. :twocents

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post #36 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-26-2006, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCrider51
Green Peace does it for the right reasons. But they LIE!!!! Exxon does it for the wrong reasons. They LIE too!!! Just because the Greens have a good motive does not negate the fact that they are lying and manipulating data in the same ways that BIG BAD EVIL OIL are(oh, and stop bitching about the industry that allows you all the conveniences of modern life, Goddammit I'm tired of that shit)
I'm tired of being oil dependent, but the nice world loving oil companies can never do anything wrong.
Even though they killed the electric car, and bought out or destroyed any technology that threatened their market, and spun propaganda and junk science in spite of repercussions of our environment.

[sarcasm]
But look at big mean me picking on those poor little innocent oil companies, I should be ashamed of myself, they produce the gas I need to drive my car that they made sure was only fossil fueled.
They force us to be completely dependent on fossil fuels, but let me set up a two ticket parade for them for making the gasoline they sell me in their stacked monopoly market.

And damn straight those Eco minded people are evil, making big oil cry at night, because it's not about saving our environment, it's about the sad story of poor oil companies trying to save the earth one gallon at a time.

Who are we to ask our oil company saviors to allow for alternative fuel option they can't supply, I say lets put all of our eggs in one oil filled basket, spend trillions of dollars fighting wars for our black gold that flows through this nations veins, pumped by the American hearts of hard working families brought up with the good moral standings oil brings to us all.

Oil means integrity, sustenance, and life!

Oil, because anything else is just unAmerican!

Oil, pumped from Gods green earth, everything else is evil.

Oil, The blood of American Soldiers pumps in all of our hearts, and the gas station pumps across America.
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post #37 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-26-2006, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XFBO
WOW!

Unfortunately the short answer is he (amongst a few others) will discredit ANYONE who is 'against' (at least in his/their mind) his/their views/culture/lifestyle....
Yes, big mean me pointing out that the same medical lung specialists that say smoking is the best thing you can do for yourself, are now master
geologists saying the world is indestructible, and we cannot do anything to harm the environment.

But that isn't the point is it, what matters to you is not the whole reason of this topic, but to make a case solely on the fact that I disagree with the obvious paid off scientists, so whatever I say is
irrelevant, for no other reason then I disagree... right?

Spin the topic all you want, your junk scientist will never hold water no matter what obtuse angle you try and hit it from.

I guess that means the other 99% of the published scientists are all out for some extreme leftist conspiracy to make people think we might be responsible for the intensity of this global warming.

Yes, those eco extremists fooled us all, lets listen to the guys who say smoking is good for us, I feel good about what they say.


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post #38 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-26-2006, 03:34 AM Thread Starter
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Whew, Cutter dude.
Lighten up...
Sorry I started the thread !

Is everything with you guys Bush, big oil & unprovable conspiracy ?
That's a spooky world y'all live in.
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post #39 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-26-2006, 03:52 AM
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In the end ,the whole picture, does anything really matter. We don't own this planet and long after the human race has died off by whatever means....the earth will continue. Be it by catastrophic plate movements, a new ice age, global warming or by the detonation of a doomsday device the planet will change. Who guaranteed us that the change will benefit mankind. It does not care if we are there for the ride, it will still change. Are we hastening the end of humans through our actions....maybe, but the end result is inevitable. It is going to happen sometime, it's like death taxes and the french surrendering it is inevitable!!!!! And remember we are just a small blip on the evolution of this planet. the planet will survive, with or without us (I suddenly got the urge to watch Star Trek the Search for Spock). So the only real question is do we go out whimpering and crying or do we party like it's 1999. Hell I'm buying a hummer.....
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post #40 of 3774 (permalink) Old 12-26-2006, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nero
Whew, Cutter dude.
Lighten up...
Sorry I started the thread !

Is everything with you guys Bush, big oil & unprovable conspiracy ?
That's a spooky world y'all live in.
Correction, that is a spooky world we live in.
And it's only about Bush, Big Oil, and the big pink elephant no one likes talking about.

And there is no need to "whew, lighten up" the thread like I am going off, I am only making some statements, nothing too extreme at all, but I do use sarcasm to show the folly of others ways.
And I fail to see why you are sorry for starting the thread, maybe if you never intended to have it debated, or if exposing the main cogs of the denial machine that makes or breaks whether or not we do anything about global warming was never thought of, then I guess you might be sorry.

But why start a debate thread then regret it when a debate is made?
Or are you just trying to spin it like I am going off on a rampage to discredit what I say?


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