Le Kiwi, that graph you posted is the quite the broken hockey stick. While I accept fully that we have had climate change for 2 billion years the majority hotter than today, why does the graph have a 30-40 year downslope in the heart of industrialiization starting around the end of WWII. Is that one of the many anomalies produced by mother nature?
So if I burn down a nice multispecies forrest can I make up for the carbon footprint by sending a couple million to some more people who crap and bathe in their nice clean rivers? I am sure alot of those bicycles in Copenhagen got used.
Apparently there was quite a lot of burning stuff around in the mid '40's, and then a fair bit of atmospheric atomic testing (WTF were we thinking ????) and all this produced some fairly impressive clouds, high atmospheric dust and soot cover.
A burning city, or ten, can do this, and when you look at how long the soot cover from the Krakatoa eruption took to finally filter out of the atmosphere, and how long the temperatures remained cool after this in certain areas, you'll get an idea of what Hiroshima and Nagasaki contributed to a general cool part of the mid 20th century.
As wars tended to be fought away from the Poles, this meant they didn't get all the effects of that cooling debris cloud hanging over our war-torn lands.
Also, EPA regulations, plus a general attempt in the West since the 70's to clean up our act have also helped reduce the smog and atmospheric pollution, but the greenhouse gas is still present, and we're still producing more Co2, methane and water vapor.
It's a vastly complicated system, and even if we stopped totally today all production of Co2, we'd still be suffering the effects for years, until eventually things swing back to a more even keel.
As for helping out the developing World, I have no problem with this. But they HAVE to make the effort to maintain stable populations and get their own shit together first.
We're all on this planet together, and the only way is up, because if we don't stretch out a hand to our neighbor, after we helped create the mess in his backyard, then we better get ready to batten down the hatches and man the guns, and I don't want to live in a world of perpetual war between the "haves" and the "have-nots".
Something you guys may really enjoy that I watched the other day. Utterly awesome film which came from nowhere.
Area51, I KNOW you'll love this, and I think you will, too, Gog. Hopefully you others will find it thought-provoking.
I came across this which I found really interesting reading, especially for the deniers who've served.
I wonder if you think these are "Lefty Liberal tree-huggers" ?
Such good writing there LK.. Here's an angle...if MMGW, earthly climate change or Martian bogeymen are causing the sudden, dangerous increases in temperature that are considered, by the most esteemed citizens, socialists, scientists and naturalists I can find anywhere on earth, a threat to national security, shouldn't we consider people blocking action to defend and prepare ourselves a threat to national security? I think so, they are for sure. They have been non stop causing one disaster after another with shameless, disastrous bravado and no apologies... time to flush these harmful petty politics and philosophies into the settling ponds of history.
Forward is good. Backward, idiotic, shallow, myopic thinkers are not.
TwinNut, I already told you what I would do if I was wrong about MMGW. I'd say thank heavens! It'd be a great feeling to be sooo wrong and feel sooo good. I'd buy another two stroke. I'd get a coal car and a wood fired jacuzzi... I doubt it but you get the point. I'd help to divert the same mentality and industry that mobilized for MMGW and use it for cleaning up pollution. There would still be MMGW on the burner(so to speak), because, as I am certain you're aware, there is a swelling, growing, merging and compounding human race that is programmed to keep going...and going......and going... toxic industry in hand and under foot.
Eventually, we will have to acknowledge that and do really smart things about it through COOPERATION with others... not war and not ignorance and contempt. Will you be there?
Now, are you just gonna give the same, standard, base and predictable answer as ding-a-ling central? No answer. What to do if you're wrong? It isn't a far flung, one in a trillion chance that you're dead wrong. It's likely and probable. But, you're convinced it's a hoax... I am asking you to consider you might be wrong... You have multitudes of recent examples from GWB's eight years of wrongtitude. Let's hear it man. Enlighten us with your ability to debate abstract, contrary positions. What do we do if you're dead wrong?
While you're busy not answering questions... What exactly is the new industry for America's future? UnGreen things, the status quo? More toxic dumping, toxic inventions, old age, lying distractions and reliance on your enemies for energy? You and your politicians did squat for independence and made billions going the wrong way.. take responsibility man.... how about supporting a new direction without the wrong ideas being your first choice at every junction....
Sarah Palin is such a cold-eyed skeptic about the Copenhagen summit on climate change that it's no surprise she would call on President Obama not to attend. After all, Obama might join other leaders in acknowledging that warming is a "global challenge." He might entertain "opportunities to reduce greenhouse gas emissions." He might even explore ways to "participate in carbon-trading markets."
Oh, wait. Those quotes aren't from some smug Euro-socialist manifesto. They're from an administrative order Palin signed in September 2007, as governor of Alaska, establishing a "sub-Cabinet" of top state officials to develop a strategy for dealing with climate change.
...Sarah Palin is such a cold-eyed skeptic about the Copenhagen summit on climate change that it's no surprise she would call on President Obama not to attend...
Better a "cold eyed skeptic" than a "cold hearted" profiteer like this one:
Well Gog, green technology could be a major new industry for the US of A. We should accelerate R&D and production of windmills and other technology through large tax breaks to big companies like GE who can then sell the technology/equipment to anyone in the world who wants to pay for it. I look forward to all the American jobs that could be created if the government cared enough to promote it through incentives. Tax breaks for people working at green companies. Direct investment by government in those companies with some of that cash earmarked for poor countries we are printing at a frenzied pace. Tax credits for people using the technology in new homes and retrofitting older homes.
The US now has estimated 90+years natural gas reserves. We should pull back on coal and retrofit for NG usage at a CO2 reduction of 50% on average and the government should subsidize natural gas exploration as a way to encourage its usage. That way after 50 years when we learn MMGW(not climate change) is a big fat lie, we will be more independent from foreign natural resources and still have a huge supply of coal to use once the stigma of MMGW is gone. We can have our cake now with more domestic energy use that is clean and eat it later when the lie is exposed. All while not giving a dime to countries who want free hand-outs.
Well Gog, green technology could be a major new industry for the US of A. We should accelerate R&D and production of windmills and other technology through large tax breaks to big companies like GE who can then sell the technology/equipment to anyone in the world who wants to pay for it. I look forward to all the American jobs that could be created if the government cared enough to promote it through incentives. Tax breaks for people working at green companies. Direct investment by government in those companies with some of that cash earmarked for poor countries we are printing at a frenzied pace. Tax credits for people using the technology in new homes and retrofitting older homes.
The US now has estimated 90+years natural gas reserves. We should pull back on coal and retrofit for NG usage at a CO2 reduction of 50% on average and the government should subsidize natural gas exploration as a way to encourage its usage. That way after 50 years when we learn MMGW(not climate change) is a big fat lie, we will be more independent from foreign natural resources and still have a huge supply of coal to use once the stigma of MMGW is gone. We can have our cake now with more domestic energy use that is clean and eat it later when the lie is exposed. All while not giving a dime to countries who want free hand-outs.
That's not how this works, nor is CO2 reduction the issue. It's wealth redistribution and AGW is a means to an end. Anti-capitalism. It's in every sentence Gog ( and the other stooges) writes.
Besides that, NG isn't clean enough for tree huggers and Nuclear isn't an option either. It's windmills and solar panels or nothing for that crowd.
Nonsense, Nero.
We'd rather not have "new-clee-yar" power, but it's not really a problem.
Our concerns are ;
1) vulnerability of reactors. These things cost a lot to build, defend, maintain and dispose of the waste.
2) Water vapor.
3) Half life of waste, including transportation and storage.
Chernobyl was no picnic, and there are still parts of my area where picking mushrooms or hunting in the mountains is forbidden due to the high traces of radiation residue from Chernobyl, some 3000 km away and 23 years ago.
I'm all hard for water turbines, or underwater "wind" mills.
The oil companies have the tech and facilities to build stuff like this, service it and maintain it, because it's easier than drilling rigs sitting in the North Sea or the Atlantic. Pop a farm of these little puppies into the Gulf Stream and you'll have enough energy to power the planet.
Geothermal power, as well as hydraulic power if dams are built thoughtfully, natural gas turbines, and of course, solar energy.
The deserts are full of vast empty space with high sunshine hours, and the only risk of a "terrorist" cutting a conduct is that he'll go "Bzzzsccht !" like a bug in a flytrap.
Cover the deserts with solar panels, and grow vegetables in the shade, watered with the condensation gathered over night.
Windmills look nice on paper, but unless you have constant speed wind, they're not that great. Hence the joy of immersed watermills dropped into ocean currents.
I see giant airships flying high in the Jet stream with solar panels powering their electric engines which should be capable of carrying 1000 people comfortably in pressurized nacelles slung underneath the dirigible hull, which also protects them from solar radiation.
It'll be a little bit slower than a jet, maybe two or three hours more for a flight Paris to New York, but who cares ?
Good in-flight movies and social lounges, even a restaurant and bar.
Jets will still fly, only using synthetic kerosene or fuel from jatropha forests, covering, for example, the plains of Afghanistan (instead of opium poppies) which is now one of the World's sources for aviation fuel and is a modern, prosperous mid-Asian moderate Muslim nation after years of war over it's strategic pipeline route from the Caspian.
I see huge ships powered by solar electric turbines and large sails slicing through the waves, carrying electric and syn-fuel high-performance motorcycles, cars and trucks, as well as all sorts of natty goods made of interesting materials, few of which have anything to do with oil, to excited consumers and a vast reseaux of mono-rail and magnetic rail trains criss-crossing the planet, including the Moscow-Seattle cargo trains crossing the Bering Sea bridge. (After all, Russia is just next door...)
I see the African Union finally putting thousands of years of tribal shit behind them and actually building a better Africa by profit-sharing the vital resources which are managed by African Union trust funds who sell the products on the UN-administered trade market. No multinational exploitation, only fair trade.
I see birth control and education everywhere, bright schools with happy, learning kids. Even today there is NO reason for anyone to go hungry, but in Le Kiwi's future, hunger is something which the children of tomorrow can't even imagine.
Jordan and Israel have returned Palestine to the Palestinians, and Israel, who lead the World in hydroponics and irrigation of arid land have at last de-polluted the Negev, and have created the flowering garden of Eden that David Ben Gurion so dreamed of.
The hard Right-wing settlers and the fanatic Muslims, radical Christians, FOX Noise propaganda hacks, as well as the entire staff of Rupert Molloch's Noise Corporation and any other wingnuts, Deniers, Birthers, whatever, have all been isolated in the vast "Empty Quarter", the Rub el Kali, where a ten mile deep minefield has contained them and cameras watch them to see which of their Gods comes to save them, rapture them or give them another prophet before they run out of the salted pork and eat each other. This is adult entertainment in my brave new world, instead of war porn as mighty armies crush poor colored people to loot their oil.
I'm betting they'll eat each other before their sky friend intervenes.
Maybe I'll feel bad about the Pope eating the Mufti, but maybe not.
At least the vultures won't go hungry, so some good will come out of Glenn Beck. Will the vulture cry a little ?
Not bad TwinNut. Some reasonable observations, statements, suggestions. You need to understand the problem as it relates to you globally. For example... You might have a wonderful, conscientious, anti pollution program in your home state or even across your great country. That should help your citizens live longer, healthier lives while showing DUE respect to mother nature. However.... you still didnt answer the question.
What if you're wrong about MMGW? What if it turns out that it is... a distinct possibility or, in fact, certain. Only an overconfident, arrogant, hubris laden person would dismiss that possibility. Only a fool would wage war against it without a proper coalition. Do you need to learn that lesson again?
The problems you will face, if you're friends ever see power again, can been foreseen by simply looking at what other countries are dumping in the ocean, into the sky, into a landfills and what you say about it.... nothing. What do they plan to do in the next 50 years? Dump until everyone's infertile? Mutated? Sickly? These practices you dont see or see from afar, will kill you and cost you and diminish you. They are limiting your freedoms as we speak. You, and yours, are part of their toxic landfills and their garbage is part of you. If you dont look at this aspect, you are not a good guardian of the future and you shouldnt make environmental policy or decisions for others.
China and Russia will poison that very same water you need for clean fish. They will poison the air that you hope fills the lungs of your unborn loved ones yet to be born. Even if you've cleaned up your act! The chemicals, which are barely regulated, are dumped by idiots of big tobacco, asbestos lobby or big, oily ilk etc. Now, you try to tell me that sitting on your ass behind your 'wall of America' is going to keep you safe and, healthy and prosperous? Wrong...fail. There are not enough filters in the universe to run everything on earth through, we shouldnt go there...ever. Right wingism points us there, puts a sandbag on the gas and accelerates us towards the cliff.
I assume you've contemplated the fact that the USA(and the usual suspects) have polluted our world for a long, long time with ooodles of very bad toxins and worse! Please stop being a denier for a minute. We're all in on it and part of it. Has taking responsibility ever crossed your mind? I mean part of being free is taking responsibility. So? How about looking at what has happened over the years and NOT try to say it's natural, no problemo or not your doing. That doesnt a weaker man make, it shows a man who accepts responsibility and makes good on reality. It shows a man who dreams of freedom, freedom to be a man. Freedom from certain illness and molecular corruption. freedom to reproduce in a natural manner.
There is only one, reasonable way for humans to go forward in evolution while on this complex, overpopulated earth... cooperation. Something right wingers fail miserably at. This(there are so many) is the number one flaw of right wingism. The inability to just stfu, take responsibility, think and do whats right for the collective(earth) while preserving the best parts of the conservative philosophy for a future of common sense, independence, responsibility and honouring of the collective..um , er ding-a-ling calls it patriotism. Lately, at right wing central, there seems to be no end in sight to the bad ideas, outright lies, misinformation, silly claims, petty politics and juvenile philosophy, all in the name of preserving something they nearly wrecked... repeatedly....
Quote:
Nero: Better a "cold eyed skeptic" than a "cold hearted" profiteer like this one:
you misspelled that Nero.. cold hearted profiteer c a p i t a l i s t.. there fixed it. You should be cozy with him now.
My point was not that she's an idiot skeptic, we all know that, it was that she is a flip flop, hypocritical, contradicting moron of the highest order...
Proposal#1: The US drops 100 fusion nuclear bombs on France and the ensuing particulates thrust into the atmoshere cool the earth for 50 years and no liberal scientits are left because there is no reason to pay them. Man made global cooling can be a certain reality. Just kidding guys?
Proposal #2: We can all agree that when a person takes on too much debt to live above their means that they are irresponsible and harmful to society at large, hence the reason for much of the financial meltdown. I'll assume we all agree on this. I propose we all try and live within our means. For the US's part, we should pass a balance budget ammendment to our constitution. We should spend all surplus money on green technology to disperse to poorer nations while using the same technology to cut our own CO2 emmisions by 70% and share our technology with other "wealthy" nations for FREE so they can do their part too. In summary, while I would agree to participating in a world wide plan to reduce emmisions in principal, I do not believe a reasonable citizen would conclude we should just print money and give it away thereby taking on more debt which will destabilize global economy more, making it yet more dificult to spend more money on righteous causes like CO2 reductions. You really cannot have your cake and eat it too when you cannot be fiscally conservative.
You tell me what the fiscally responsiible solution is. If printing dollars is your answer, than that is just not good enough.
Nero, it's Winter. It gets cold in Winter.
It gets even colder when the Polar ice cap has melted and that cold water works its way into the deep ocean currents.
Look, just sit in a warm bath and turn on the cold tap. What happens ? Why is that so hard to understand ?
In the Winters prior to the onset of the Seventies, the Polar ice stayed reasonably stable, but now vast amounts of it has melted and collapsed into the oceans. Where did it go ?
As for the "SDF" ("sans domicile fixe") or homeless, even with the shelters we provide free of charge, many of these people choose to be hobos and refuse to accept the hand of charity.
"To each his own."
There is also a callous side to our society of consumption. Darwin may have agreed that it was "survival of the fittest", but nowadays it's "survival of the richest".
Twin-nut's proposal #2 is pretty good. You conservatives are always tub-thumping about "individual responsibility", but I wonder how many of you good people actually assume this ?
Just because it's cold in your macrocosm doesn't mean anything. It's warm on the rest of the planet.
Unless you see the whole picture, you'll never understand what you're looking at.
And the "whole picture" says the Earth is warming unnaturally fast due to industrialization, over-population, deforestation, pollution and burning of fossil fuels.
It's NOT rocket science. Just science.
Chaos effect, my man.
Flap, butterfly, flap.
Interesting comments on Copenhagen summit results.
The new Darwinisim is "survival of the financially fit"....
Let the rest eat cake.........................
Merry Christmas ladies, happy quanza gag.
Semper Fi!
-Rocky-
__________________
ROCKYMT
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Le Kiwi, what makes you think the earth is warming unnaturally fast rather that just naturally fast. You are looking at the microcosm of 150 odd years of data on a 2+ billion year old planet with life present for 100's of millions of years? You obviously have read a great deal on the subject, but what allows you to make the leap of faith to attribute it all to man, or even enough to man that we can slow at best the course of warming temperatures. You have faith in what others are having you believe in a way little different than faith in religion. You preach as if at a pulpit on Sunday morning. Science is not a faith. Science is supposed to help lead us to a truth. Instead, "the truth" has been decided by some and the science is being applied in a manner to move us to the truth some want us to believe. You cannot expect the average person to change their lives and the future of their children's lives on half-baked truths. You might hope their elected leaders would decide to be paternalistic and make all the "right" decisions for them, but this will not be acceptable to many now and they will vote their consciense.
Does war, industry, chemistry, consumption and eight billion people mean anything to your summary of the inconsequential evolution of industrialized humans on earth? Is it not even a factor or just a footnote? Maybe we could rethink this dismissive attitude and go for some 'Joe average', 'common(average) sense'.
Whatever we contemplate, discuss and argue here in ZillaVille.. I wish you all good things. I hope you find some peace and comfort in your journeys. I hope your country leads the earth's environmental fight fro life and gains back it's credibility and know how to do it right.
I say what I say here because I am free to speak in true democratic fashion, everyone here is worthy of the position we have as free thinking men in a democracy...
I hope more people respect nature next year... and so on and so on.... forever..
Happy holidays my stubborn, bull headed, incorrigible adversaries...
Le Kiwi, what makes you think the earth is warming unnaturally fast rather that just naturally fast...but what allows you to make the leap of faith to attribute it all to man, or even enough to man that we can slow at best the course of warming temperatures... You have faith in what others are having you believe in a way little different than faith in religion. You preach as if at a pulpit on Sunday morning....
Gog, while I disagree with you on virtually everything, and I kid around with you "3 stooges", I do enjoy our "debates". Best to you and yours. Same to all of youz guys.
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