What does this mean for the argument that 'it's the Rider, not the bike'?
At amateur level (DMG which is just glorified club racing), and even at the pro level like WSBK certainly the rider comes more into play. It's the reason why in one race Blake Young can hang with Hayes and then the next race he struggles to qualify on the front row. Clearly Hayes is the best rider in DMG. Then in WSBK you've got a guy like Checa who's ducati has halted in it's development yet he's still a threat week in and week out against the faster bike/rider combos.
Come now to prototype racing and now the bike matters more. Rossi who has arguably the finest race craft under the heavens is lost on the Ducati. His lap times at the tracks are faster than Stoner's when Stoner was last on the Ducati but I guess that's apples to oranges. Ducati has certainly improved but so have the other factory bikes. To some degree, when a bike has weaknesses but is not grossly deficient it's still possible to put a good season together and even steal wins (Like Tech 3 Yamaha). But when a bike is really off the pace like the Ducati even the Greatest Rider of All Time can't get it on the Podium. Theory broken.
So it really isn't about the rider then as much as it is the bike. Or maybe there's a balance. Perhaps it's about the combo of bike and rider. Who knows. I sure don't. But I do think it's time for Rossi to write a sequel to his first book and call it "I'm Sorry That I Ever Tried It" and make amends with Honda.
Let pride alone and grab that Gresini Honda for 2013 and win on Simoncelli's bike. Avenge your friend and sing the greatest Swan Song ever sang!
in a way, I wish he would just call it quits, having him there, just takes away from the sport in a lot of ways...
I agree. I had hoped he would have retired or moved on after his 2nd title with Yamaha. I was hoping he would have left Yamaha a few yrs earlier to be on the Ducati before he was past his prime. I thought that back then, not just now but obviously more so now.
Now he's a bit of a caricature of himself instead of the omnipotent force he was. In many ways I applaud Stoner for leaving on top of his game, but mostly for avoiding this situation.
Not only Rossi for that matter. IMO more riders should have taken the Doug Polen and Matt Mladin approach to racing; it's a business. Treat it like a business and maximize your value because you have a limited shelf life. Mladin knew his best bang for the buck in terms of money in his pocket was in AMA and Polen had a similar approach before and during his Ferraci Ducati days.
I hope guys like Edwards are making more than they would in WSC to be riding those CRTs - but I doubt it. Otherwise I would honestly look at Colin Edwards and wonder WTF man.
__________________
2006 BMW HP2
2011 Husqvarna TE630
2011 BMW S1000RR
Sour grapes are a lesser man's fruit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop The [fact] that the RC45 was a "relative failure" is what matters most...
What does this mean for the argument that 'it's the Rider, not the bike'?
At amateur level (DMG which is just glorified club racing), and even at the pro level like WSBK certainly the rider comes more into play. It's the reason why in one race Blake Young can hang with Hayes and then the next race he struggles to qualify on the front row. Clearly Hayes is the best rider in DMG. Then in WSBK you've got a guy like Checa who's ducati has halted in it's development yet he's still a threat week in and week out against the faster bike/rider combos.
Come now to prototype racing and now the bike matters more. Rossi who has arguably the finest race craft under the heavens is lost on the Ducati. His lap times at the tracks are faster than Stoner's when Stoner was last on the Ducati but I guess that's apples to oranges. Ducati has certainly improved but so have the other factory bikes. To some degree, when a bike has weaknesses but is not grossly deficient it's still possible to put a good season together and even steal wins (Like Tech 3 Yamaha). But when a bike is really off the pace like the Ducati even the Greatest Rider of All Time can't get it on the Podium. Theory broken.
So it really isn't about the rider then as much as it is the bike. Or maybe there's a balance. Perhaps it's about the combo of bike and rider. Who knows. I sure don't. But I do think it's time for Rossi to write a sequel to his first book and call it "I'm Sorry That I Ever Tried It" and make amends with Honda.
Let pride alone and grab that Gresini Honda for 2013 and win on Simoncelli's bike. Avenge your friend and sing the greatest Swan Song ever sang!
I don't think he's been proven wrong at all, Jlo is clearly the difference on the Yam, riding smooth and treating the tires right. There has to be a combination, it was thought that Casey could ride around any problems on a bike but even he has shown that he needs things to be right. Rossi was never saying he was a miracle worker but you still need the worlds best on your bike to win. Honda went after Casey because Dani wasn't getting it done and he was the difference there. The worlds best riders Casey and Jlo are worth 3 tenths, Rossi might not have that in him anymore but I can guarantee you that he would be the fastest after those two if he had a good bike. The Ducati is simply a POS.
If Rossi switches manufacturers and wins another championship, it would tend to lend weight to it being the bike not the rider.
Likewise if he eventually wins on the Ducati it certainly looks like the bike has to be "good enough" for a good rider to win.
If Rossi switches manufacturers and continues to collect sixth places, he will look washed up but we will not know whether it was the Ducati or Rossi that was below par.
If Rossi never wins on the Ducati and retires, we will never know either.
And finally, if Rossi had retired on the spot as Simoncelli's lifeless body was laying on the track in Malaysia, no one would have ever questioned him. In hindsight this may have been his chance to leave with his legacy and dignity intact. Every race he is outqualifed by his teammate and finishes midpack behind satellite bikes makes him look more and more human.
guess I'm just sick and tired of how Dorna kisses his ass, and treats every other rider differently, even while he's just plodding around in 7th, drawing a fat paycheck...
maybe he should just run it hard one last race, win it or bin it, and either way, go out with a great effort, that would beat just seeing him laying around moaning about the shitty bike all the time....
You gotta give Hayden props for haning in there and acting the true champion...
Rossi has crashed how many times in FP, QP and races this season?
You think he LIKES crashing? Does it for fun? C'mon...get real.
He is pushing it past the point of no return....yet can only manages to be the fastest Ducati out there.
No chance of catching the Yamaha or the Honda.
Back on topic....I'd agree 100% with Turbo. Rossi had to eat humble pie regarding the significance of the bike in MGP/Racing. The bike clearly IS important for competing at this level. Perhaps more important than at any other level of racing, because the difference between the top handful of riders is so small. A simple setup issue can mean the difference between and win and not even being on the podium. Rossi was WRONG. I think that's clear to everyone. Including Casey, who has been soundly beaten by his teammate recently....is Danny suddenly faster than Casey? No way. His got his bike working better.
__________________ Old Baldy
Ducati 996 with hot 999 motor
Triumph Tiger 955i
Kawasaki KLR650 OB's Ride Reports
maybe he should just run it hard one last race, win it or bin it, and either way, go out with a great effort, that would beat just seeing him laying around moaning about the shitty bike all the time....
You gotta give Hayden props for haning in there and acting the true champion...
Haha, he ran it hard in 8th place and then binned it while his teammate went on to get 6th. Rossi has only scored 5 more pts than Hayden since he came to Ducati. 5 pts!!!!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgrn
why don'y you do yourself a favor and put me on ignore
He said in order to win, the Ducati must be ridden just one way, and he is unable to ride it in that manner...
True and Burgess, Roberts Snr. etc have all acknowledged that even the top athletes eventually lose their edge and are not as willing to push the limits.
__________________
2006 BMW HP2
2011 Husqvarna TE630
2011 BMW S1000RR
Sour grapes are a lesser man's fruit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop The [fact] that the RC45 was a "relative failure" is what matters most...
True and Burgess, Roberts Snr. etc have all acknowledged that even the top atheletes eventually lose their edge and are not as willing to push the limits.
Others also note the dropoff in performance of riders after they have a kid. Very few have won a title after having a child.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgrn
why don'y you do yourself a favor and put me on ignore
True and Burgess, Roberts Snr. etc have all acknowledged that even the top atheletes eventually lose their edge and are not as willing to push the limits.
Well, Rossi pushed over the bike's limit today, obviously.
But...it's a valid question whether or not he has lost his edge/skills. Almost impossible to tell, really, but if Nicky continues to close the gap in the championship and becomes the top Duc rider in points, I'd suggest there is merit in that argument.
It's awful seeing a great champion no longer being at the top of the game, for whatever reason.
But, for me, while I clearly could care less, I LOVE to watch good racing, and Lolly and Casey are supplying the goods, in no uncertain terms. Casey is just so ****ing BRILLIANT to watch, and Lolly is like a well-oiled machine....ticking those lap times within hundredths of each other, and hitting those apexes and lines unbelievably consistently.
Truly impressive champions, both of them.
__________________ Old Baldy
Ducati 996 with hot 999 motor
Triumph Tiger 955i
Kawasaki KLR650 OB's Ride Reports
Well, Rossi pushed over the bike's limit today, obviously.
But...it's a valid question whether or not he has lost his edge/skills. Almost impossible to tell, really, but if Nicky continues to close the gap in the championship and becomes the top Duc rider in points, I'd suggest there is merit in that argument.
Nicky IS the leading Duc in pts now. And he has only scored 5 less pts than Rossi since Rossi came to Ducati. They are essentially the same racer now.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgrn
why don'y you do yourself a favor and put me on ignore
From my friends in Italy the problem being is the engineers are not listening to Rossi on how to develop the bike. It's the same response "Casey road it...".
In no way am I an expert, I'm just spitting back up what I've been told. In short the geometry is all wrong on the bike and since they use the motor as a major stress member of the frame in order to change the geomtry they have to nuke six motors and start at the back of the grid for the rest of the season. Right now they are a second down - something Casey could make up but I guess Rossi and Hayden cannot (In the book "Ring of Fire" the author states Casey was always a over looked talent).
Since they allow hardly NO testing its next to impossible to get the bike set up so they "Guess". The satelite bikes have the motor in the traditional "L" (you'll see the head of the motor under the radiator and above the oil cooler). Rossi' and Hayden's bikes the motor is tilted back 35 degrees so the hard is above the radiator. this was the "guess" they came up with when they submitted the six motors for each bike to the FIM.
Rossi as advised Ducati to can the 90 degree L in favor of a 60 or 65 degree V and making the motor "hang" between the frame vs being intergrated into the over all handling of the bike but Ducati's engineers simply have refused this idea OR cannot get their minds around it. Yamaha complete listen to Rossi and look what happen first time out in 2004 and have evolved the design since then.
Also Rossi wants to develop more of a 250GP style machine Vs Hayden who wishes more of a superbike (they both have their bikes set up in that fashion). From what I've heard Casey had a bit of both.
In short is it the rider? I still believe it is but if you keep a design philosphy in place that doesn't work no rider can help.
__________________
Current Ride:
2006 Ducati 999S Mono in black.
From my friends in Italy the problem being is the engineers are not listening to Rossi on how to develop the bike. It's the same response "Casey road it...".
In no way am I an expert, I'm just spitting back up what I've been told. In short the geometry is all wrong on the bike and since they use the motor as a major stress member of the frame in order to change the geomtry they have to nuke six motors and start at the back of the grid for the rest of the season. Right now they are a second down - something Casey could make up but I guess Rossi and Hayden cannot (In the book "Ring of Fire" the author states Casey was always a over looked talent).
Since they allow hardly NO testing its next to impossible to get the bike set up so they "Guess". The satelite bikes have the motor in the traditional "L" (you'll see the head of the motor under the radiator and above the oil cooler). Rossi' and Hayden's bikes the motor is tilted back 35 degrees so the hard is above the radiator. this was the "guess" they came up with when they submitted the six motors for each bike to the FIM.
Rossi as advised Ducati to can the 90 degree L in favor of a 60 or 65 degree V and making the motor "hang" between the frame vs being intergrated into the over all handling of the bike but Ducati's engineers simply have refused this idea OR cannot get their minds around it. Yamaha complete listen to Rossi and look what happen first time out in 2004 and have evolved the design since then.
Also Rossi wants to develop more of a 250GP style machine Vs Hayden who wishes more of a superbike (they both have their bikes set up in that fashion). From what I've heard Casey had a bit of both.
In short is it the rider? I still believe it is but if you keep a design philosphy in place that doesn't work no rider can help.
Why.
Why would Italian engineers paid to develop an Italian MGP bike ignore a top Italian rider's input? Not just any rider. I find it implausible to believe that Italian Ducati MGP engineers are ignoring the advice of the the most successful Italian MGP champion in recent years. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Italians are prone to drama but also prone to immense nationalistic pride.
If you have watched Ferrari and the way they have conducted themselves with a Spanish driver at the helm clawing their way to the top of the F1 heap imagine the efforts the Italians will make in supporting an Italian rider.
It doesn't make sense. Period.
I don't discount your opinion or your friends. I just wonder if the move to support the Rossi / Burgess vision of this bike has bollocked the original design so much so that it is hopeless.
__________________
2006 BMW HP2
2011 Husqvarna TE630
2011 BMW S1000RR
Sour grapes are a lesser man's fruit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop The [fact] that the RC45 was a "relative failure" is what matters most...
Now that Rossi's been proven wrong......
Very few have won a title after having a child.
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