I'm wondering what happened to counter-reciprocating props that they used to use at Reno. I'll bet they were disallowed due to safety in case of an engine stall.
Answer?
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
Re: Crash at Reno
FYI, Just got this from an old squadron buddy:
This seems to fit.
The following, I believe is a fairly accurate analysis of Leeland's loss of control of the P51 Galloping Ghost. It was written in a blog of comments.
This accident was caused by the failure of the left elevator trim tab. This exact same failure occurred to the P-51 Voodoo in the 1998 Reno race. That aircraft didn't roll inverted, but climbed up past 9,000 feet, where the pilot woke up.
… Voodoo very abruptly pulled up; however, Hannah didn’t radio a distress call. … Steve Hinton flew over to take a look Voodoo. “You OK Bob?” called Hinton. “Yea, this thing just popped big time,” replied Hannah. What Hannah didn’t mention is that the g-load from the quick pull-up had caused him to black out. He finally managed to reach the throttle and reduced Voodoo’s power. At that point Hannah radioed that he “(wasn’t) out of it yet,” but he wasn’t thinking clearly. Later, he declared a mayday and made a perfect landing. … On the ground one could see what cause Voodoo’s problems during the race. The left elevator torque tube failed when the elevator trim fluttered and departed the plane. Fortunately, Bob Hannah’s skill and coolness in the cockpit saved day.
When the trim tab fell off Voodoo, the plane shot upwards and the 10G deceleration force caused Bob Hannah to black out entirely. That’s just as you would expect: the faster you go, the more the plane points upwards on its own, and the more you need to point the nose down to trim the airplane. Thus, at speed and level, the trim tab points up relative to the airflow over the elevator, causing the elevator to be deflected slightly down to maintain level flight.
At over 500 miles per hour, there are enormous airloads on the elevator trim tab to keep the elevator in a position that allows the pilot to maintain control, making damage to the trim tab more likely. Remove the trim tab and the non-trimmed elevator settings immediately deflect up, just like when pulling the stick back hard. That’s what causes the abrupt climb (and corresponding loss of consciousness) when the trim tab falls off.
Hannah regained consciousness at 9,000 feet and, as you can tell from the above, took some time to come back to his senses. It was even the same trim tab. The difference between Voodoo’s close call and Galloping Ghost’s tragedy may have been pure, dumb luck: Voodoo didn’t roll after losing the trim tab while Galloping Ghost did.
But that doesn’t necessarily mean flutter caused the trim tab to dislodge, or that the trim tab was the cause of the accident, or that the trim tab was the only cause of the accident. It’s quite possible something else caused the Galloping Ghost to climb rapidly, and in that process the flutter developed or the trim tab was damaged. As has been reported, some members of the crowd noticed “a strange gurgling engine noise” before Galloping Ghost pitched upwards. Further, as discussed below, it’s possible the trim tab failure could have been avoided, and more could have been done — such as ensuring the pilot was harnessed properly and plotting the race further from the stands — to prevent this tragedy.
Aircraft like the P-51 Galloping Ghost, require a great deal of nose down trim to offset the lift which tends to force the nose up at high speeds (450 mph in this case). This trim setting places a great deal of stress on the trim tab and its hinges and mounting. If the tab should fail, the elevator will return to neutral, inducing an extremely violent pitch-up with zero warning. The associated g forces can incapacitate a pilot....
Notice that in some photos that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed. Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC. GLOC is an acronym for G induced Loss Of Consciousness.
Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel.... My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that. Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading. He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.
I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.
nice description, thanks for that, makes a lot more sense to me now if thats what happened. I know little about airplanes and that crash just looked like it all went crazy from an spectators point of view.
The planes today have four blades on one prop. The planes of old, some of them had eight blades on two counter-rotating props, on one engine. When the engine died the plane dropped like a rock due to the resistance. Back in the day when these races were on television the announcers always made a point of saying stalled props were like a barn door in the wind.
Also wondering...
Why are they still using P-51's? How many of these beauties are left? Can't they find another type of plane to use so we don't loose them all to these flights of fancy...or fantasy?
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
Also wondering...
Why are they still using P-51's? How many of these beauties are left? Can't they find another type of plane to use so we don't loose them all to these flights of fancy...or fantasy?
because P-51s are among the fastest piston-driven aircraft made. Jets came along shortly afterwards, and we quit trying to make prop driven aircraft fast, simply because jets were so much faster, it wasnt worth trying.
Since the air races forbid turbine-driven craft, some competitors use 'old' planes....but they are so modified the only actual original part left is the airframe, and thats probably heavily modified itself. Its about as stock as a NASCAR.
Also, as I pointed out before, they must follow FAA mandated maintenance (but probably maintain them at an even higher level). There are a ton of 30+ yr old planes flying today, and if we maintained cars at FAA levels, we'd still be driving bel-airs and furys. Its not uncommon for commercial jetliner airframes to rack up over 1 million flight hours before being retired. Compared to that, the air racers are barely broke in.
And dont worry, there are plenty of 'proper' P-51s still being flown by the commemorative air force and others. Nobody is going to let the racers have them all.
counter rotating refers to a multi engined airplane with counter rotating engines, or props , contra rotating refers to stacked blades on one engine rotating opposite of each other, usually driven by a sun gear arrangement...
because P-51s are among the fastest piston-driven aircraft made. Jets came along shortly afterwards, and we quit trying to make prop driven aircraft fast, simply because jets were so much faster, it wasnt worth trying.
Since the air races forbid turbine-driven craft, some competitors use 'old' planes....but they are so modified the only actual original part left is the airframe, and thats probably heavily modified itself. Its about as stock as a NASCAR.
Also, as I pointed out before, they must follow FAA mandated maintenance (but probably maintain them at an even higher level). There are a ton of 30+ yr old planes flying today, and if we maintained cars at FAA levels, we'd still be driving bel-airs and furys. Its not uncommon for commercial jetliner airframes to rack up over 1 million flight hours before being retired. Compared to that, the air racers are barely broke in.
And dont worry, there are plenty of 'proper' P-51s still being flown by the commemorative air force and others. Nobody is going to let the racers have them all.
I'm aware of most of that. Point is, why not change the rules? Answer: There's nothing cooler than a war bird, and especially, a P-51. That's the real answer. It's about selling tickets. At least that's my guess.
Contra rotating! That makes sense.
FYI, Wiki says there are 204 P-51's in private hands in the U.S. Most are flyable.
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
I'm aware of most of that. Point is, why not change the rules? Answer: There's nothing cooler than a war bird, and especially, a P-51. That's the real answer. It's about selling tickets. At least that's my guess.
Contra rotating! That makes sense.
FYI, Wiki says there are 204 P-51's in private hands in the U.S. Most are flyable.
kind of a thread hijack, but its in the P51 vein so i dont feel too bad
my ex wife grandfather (still alive) flew p51s in WWII and was highly decorated for it. Hes in a bunch of WWII ace pilot books and stuff. Recently, while attending a P51 reunion, he was surprised by everyone as they opened a hangar to reveal HIS P51 that had been recovered and fully restored. They painted the thing with his colors and name on the canope just as it was when he last flew it, it was a pretty amazing moment...seeing the tough old man crying was special.
Im still very close to the whole family and this was a pretty huge deal, he never ever would talk about any of it and this opened the flood gates with him, very cool.
Point is, why not change the rules? Answer: There's nothing cooler than a war bird, and especially, a P-51. That's the real answer. It's about selling tickets. At least that's my guess.
That, and the fact that if they did allow turbines, speeds would be near (if not at) supersonic. It would no longer be a spectator sport, seeing a streak for a fraction of a second, then getting pummeled by a sonic boom.
Way cool story, sus. Thanks.
IMO, if you're going to war the best place to be is in the seat of a 51.
__________________ "...let us not ignore the truth among ourselves, that we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down."
David Ben-Gurion (the father of Israel) "When fascism comes to America it will be draped in a flag and holding a cross." Sinclair Lewis I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all.
I went to Indianapolis Raceway Park (Dragstrip not that dump of a speedway) for a drag race. As part of the opening ceremonies they had a P51 Mustang make a low pass.
Low was an understatement as he was below the tops of the spectators stands as he went down the strip and he pulled up to miss the trees at the end.
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