The everyday risks of death associated with accidents involving a plane, car, motorcycle or crossing a city street are much, much greater than those associated with attending an air show once a year. The odds are stacked due to the frequency with which we participate in the latter set of everyday activities.
To those that suggest that by bringing our families to airshows exposes them to unnecessary and avoidable risk may benefit from a broader perspective on their assessment of death risks and its impact on families.
For example, if you are a motorcyclist who has a wife and young children, even if you have a good life insurance policy (which many bike riding family men do not) how responsible is it to ride a bike on the street and/or track, particularly if it means the chances of your kids growing up fatherless and without the parental and economic support you would otherwise provide (had you not died) are far greater than the vastly lesser risk to you and your family of attending an airshow?
Too many folks today just vomit their opinions on an almost limitless range of topics without a.) having much actual knowledge of the topic, or b.) giving the matter careful thought or research.
She supposedly kept her bike 3 hours away in Penn in Daves garage but who drives 3 hours to get your bike for a ride
Haven't seen him in a while but i can confirm he also thinks you're a complete fukn idiot! Your stupidity is only matched by the garbage you sell. Hold on while I go post in another thread chronicling yet another failure of your products.
Why would anyone be so stupid to tell people where their bikes are stored? Look where that got you:
"2004 CBR 1000rr done past the 9's and stolen!"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgrn
why don'y you do yourself a favor and put me on ignore
This was an Air RACE, not an Air SHOW. The crash was because of a mechanical failure in the P51.
Most Air SHOW crashes are far away from spectators.
Why are they popular? Obviously you haven't been to one, or you don't give a $%#& about flying...
Spectators have been killed at auto races, and probably motorcycle races too. Shall we just ban all forms of motor racing?
Last month a fan fell at a major league baseball game while reaching for a fly ball. Shall we just eliminate all spectator sports?
Where do you suggest the line be drawn?
I think in the event of a situation like this where all of the risk should have only been with the pilot, questions like how and why did X number of spectators die are to be expected and are reasonable to demand answers to, to demand changes to the event. No one is calling for a ban to these events; just improved safety. Surely you support that.
So do we just ignore it and go on without making an attempt to improve safety or do we learn from this. I never understood why that baseball diamond was constructed the way it was but the fan reaching over and out certainly contributed the catalyst to the situation. Can we say the same for these spectators at the air show / race?
Yes people have died at sporting events and at all of those events the questions of why and how to prevent these tragedies again have been asked, I don't see why this is such a taboo subject for you.
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2006 BMW HP2
2011 Husqvarna TE630
2011 BMW S1000RR
Sour grapes are a lesser man's fruit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop The [fact] that the RC45 was a "relative failure" is what matters most...
I think in the event of a situation like this where all of the risk should have only been with the pilot, questions like how and why did X number of spectators die are to be expected and are reasonable to demand answers to, to demand changes to the event. No one is calling for a ban to these events; just improved safety. Surely you support that.
So do we just ignore it and go on without making an attempt to improve safety or do we learn from this. I never understood why that baseball diamond was constructed the way it was but the fan reaching over and out certainly contributed the catalyst to the situation. Can we say the same for these spectators at the air show / race?
Yes people have died at sporting events and at all of those events the questions of why and how to prevent these tragedies again have been asked, I don't see why this is such a taboo subject for you.
Question how would you avoid an unconscious pilot from hitting a crowd that are in the vicinity to watch the display, other than have them fly so far away that you might as well watch it on TV.
Question how would you avoid an unconscious pilot from hitting a crowd that are in the vicinity to watch the display, other than have them fly so far away that you might as well watch it on TV.
i was 8 yrs old and got hit by a car that ran up on the sidewalk.
did i stop riding?.....well for the month it took to heal.
but otherwise hell no.
To those that suggest that by bringing our families to airshows exposes them to unnecessary and avoidable risk may benefit from a broader perspective on their assessment of death risks and its impact on families.
If this comment was meant for me, the point I was trying to make was not that you should not take your families to these events, but that the child did not have a say in whether they accepted the risk.
I was responding to somebodies comment about you accept the risk when you go to these shows, ie. not everybody has full acceptance and understanding or choice relating to the risk.
Pete
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'97 Suzuki GS500E - Sold 28000 km's later.
'90 Suzuki GN250 - Sold 57000 km's later. Cost less than 12c per km to run ...
Grumpy Kiwi.
Why fly when ya can make a lot of noise
If this comment was meant for me, the point I was trying to make was not that you should not take your families to these events, but that the child did not have a say in whether they accepted the risk.
I was responding to somebodies comment about you accept the risk when you go to these shows, ie. not everybody has full acceptance and understanding or choice relating to the risk.
Pete
No, Sir. My point was that the child of of motorcyclist who dies similarly lacks full acceptance and understanding or choice relating to the risk taken by the father. While in my example, the child is not physically harmed, the impact remains severe and there are a hell of a lot more children left fatherless by bikes than there are children who are in any way harmed by air show accidents.
That does not mean that steps should not be taken to improve safety.
Too many folks today just vomit their opinions on an almost limitless range of topics without a.) having much actual knowledge of the topic, or b.) giving the matter careful thought or research.
True...
When you attend Reno Air Races its about Implied Acceptance of Risk
In a majority of cases, the consent to assume the risk is implied from the
conduct of the plaintiff under the circumstances. The basis of the defense is
not contract, but consent, and it is available in many cases in which no
express agreement exists.
"By entering voluntarily into any relationship or transaction in which the
negligence of the defendant is evident, the plaintiff is deemed to accept and
consent to it, to assume responsibility for personal safety, and to unburden
the defendant of the obligation. Spectators at certain sports events assume
all the known risks of injury from flying objects. Plaintiffs who enter business
premises as invitees and detect dangerous conditions can be deemed to
assume the risks when they continue voluntarily to encounter them."
No, Sir. My point was that the child of of motorcyclist who dies similarly lacks full acceptance and understanding or choice relating to the risk taken by the father. While in my example, the child is not physically harmed, the impact remains severe and there are a hell of a lot more children left fatherless by bikes than there are children who are in any way harmed by air show accidents.
That does not mean that steps should not be taken to improve safety.
Good point, exception the motorcyclist does have a large amount of control over his motorcycle, but the parent spectator has no control at all over the plane. But heck we both have good points .
I've tried hard but I cannot find a spectator solution for these air races. Air shows should be okay, but the racing is what caused this accident by pushing a plane to breaking point and once we have a malfunction and an unconscious pilot who knows where the accident will be.
Maybe all planes should be fitted with a detonating device that can be activated by air races controllers ...
Pete
__________________
'97 Suzuki GS500E - Sold 28000 km's later.
'90 Suzuki GN250 - Sold 57000 km's later. Cost less than 12c per km to run ...
Grumpy Kiwi.
Why fly when ya can make a lot of noise
When you attend Reno Air Races its about Implied Acceptance of Risk
In a majority of cases, the consent to assume the risk is implied from the
conduct of the plaintiff under the circumstances. The basis of the defense is
not contract, but consent, and it is available in many cases in which no
express agreement exists.
"By entering voluntarily into any relationship or transaction in which the
negligence of the defendant is evident, the plaintiff is deemed to accept and
consent to it, to assume responsibility for personal safety, and to unburden
the defendant of the obligation. Spectators at certain sports events assume
all the known risks of injury from flying objects. Plaintiffs who enter business
premises as invitees and detect dangerous conditions can be deemed to
assume the risks when they continue voluntarily to encounter them."
Sorry, I can't see that holding up in court, and I know of car racing examples where organisers were tried for man-slaughter over spectator deaths.
Pete
__________________
'97 Suzuki GS500E - Sold 28000 km's later.
'90 Suzuki GN250 - Sold 57000 km's later. Cost less than 12c per km to run ...
Grumpy Kiwi.
Why fly when ya can make a lot of noise
If there is any fault to be assumed in the cause of this accident, it probably lies with the pilot, Jimmy Leeward, himself in that he chose to recently make significant modifications to his plane's wings and ailerons in order to increase turning performance. From what I have read, he allegedly undertook these modifications purely on his own intuition and with little or no engineering structural analysis and no testing. These changes may well have in turn caused the failure that led to the crash.
Bob "Hurricane" Hannah nearly died in a P51 some years back in what might have been a similar problem to the one that recently occurred in Reno. As with Leeward's plane, Hannah's P51 suddenly and violently pitched upward resulting in him losing consciousness. Fortunately for the Hall of Fame Motocross legend, he woke up in time and managed to regain control of the aircraft enabling a safe landing.
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