Rossi: Traction Control Must Be Curtailed
by dean adams
Monday, August 30, 2010
Outside of his motorhome last night at the Indianapolis MotoGP race, reigning world champion Valentino Rossi railed against electronic rider aides used in MotoGP. Rossi, in his signature machine-gun style of talking, said major steps need to be taken to curtail the control that the MotoGP's ECU has over the machine.
"I think this is a big problem for MotoGP," Rossi said, echoing statements made last week by Kenny Roberts Junior "because the races are very boring. So we lose our best card, especially compared to Formula One, because until 2006, with Michelin and Bridgestone, but 1000 engines, less electronics, f***, the races were unbelievable. So a lot, a lot of people stay (glued) with the television, because you know that for sure MotoGP will be a great excitement."
"When Bridgestone arrive, 800 arrive, and this amount electronic arrive, make these race very, very boring. So is like sleeping, like with Formula One. So I hope that they have (this in mind). Not for next year, because for next year (the rules are) the same, but for 2012, when they have to make new rules for the 1000, take out some electronic, take out some anti-wheelie, take out some anti-spin."
Rossi remains the most powerful voice in MotoGP racing and his opinions carry huge weight in Barcelona.
"The people want to see the bike that ...wheelieing, make slide," he said. "(Racing now) is like the remote control, no? The rider cannot make any more difference. On the last lap, if you have 1.5 second or two second, you remain with 1.5 or two second. Maybe you gain 0.5. But before, you gain 0.5 in two laps, when you are in a good shape with good setting. Now, is like everybody the same, because all the acceleration, all the anti-wheelie, is control from the bike."
"So I hope for fix this problem ...its not enough just (increase capacity to )1000. The problem is the electronic." ENDS
here here, but this is nothing new he's been sayin that for a while. it's so true though 990 era I think was arguably the most exciting racing hands down. as much as I love the 2 smokes I still think it was a better spectacle.
He will if Dorna feel there is merit in the belief that the racing is getting less dramatic and spectator interesting....and crowds and viewership continues to drop.
Rightly or wrongly, it's NOT about the fastest way to get around a track...it's about the SHOW....and has been, since huge sponsorship came into the picture to fund the racing.
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
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Precisely! Two guys whose careers have gone straight into the toilet. They, of all people, NEED an excuse. Melandri has blown on 3 different brands in 3 years.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgrn
why don'y you do yourself a favor and put me on ignore
He will if Dorna feel there is merit in the belief that the racing is getting less dramatic and spectator interesting....and crowds and viewership continues to drop.
Rightly or wrongly, it's NOT about the fastest way to get around a track...it's about the SHOW....and has been, since huge sponsorship came into the picture to fund the racing.
The sponsorships have not been lacking due to electronics, racing at all levels and with all levels of electronics has been hit by the economic downturn - nothing ot do with the show or electronics it's all down to costs and value returned.
MGP even when it had less electronics at the start of the 4 stroke era didn't make the splash everyone expected and it wasn't electronics that alienated people.
Given the drop in injuries and mortality rates I'll take the electronics. The Rainey-Schwantz era didn't have them and no one could run with them but their injuries compared to today were more severe. The same situation exists today for the aliens, a few front runners and many alsorans but their a lot safer today.
Me thinks this was just a headline grabbing moment for Rossi since there really wasn't merit in his claims or his performance this past weekend. It's a small dig at Pedrosa etal that they couldn't have beat him if the electronics weren't there. It's mind games again.
__________________
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Sour grapes are a lesser man's fruit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop The [fact] that the RC45 was a "relative failure" is what matters most...
The sponsorships have not been lacking due to electronics, racing at all levels and with all levels of electronics has been hit by the economic downturn - nothing ot do with the show or electronics it's all down to costs and value returned.
The largest cost of racing today is electronics.
EDIT: Ok, I'll revise this as I don't have proof of this, but will say rather that electronics is a very major and key part of the cost of modern MGP racing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sqd8r
MGP even when it had less electronics at the start of the 4 stroke era didn't make the splash everyone expected and it wasn't electronics that alienated people.
True..it was the relative lack of SHOW, because the fourstrokes were a much milder, more controllable, easier to ride machine than the bucking, torque-spiking, wild wheelying, high-siding 2-strokes. The new MGP bikes take the speed vs "show" aspects to another level. And the bikes are now even LESS unwieldy to ride while being faster. Faster, yes. More fun to watch? Some will say No!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sqd8r
Me thinks this was just a headline grabbing moment for Rossi since there really wasn't merit in his claims or his performance this past weekend. It's a small dig at Pedrosa etal that they couldn't have beat him if the electronics weren't there. It's mind games again.
Nope. Rossi has been saying the same thing for YEARS...even when he was world champ and indisputably the fastest guy out there. He's been pretty consistent in this exact same message. As have a few others.
Me? I agree with him. Give me the wheelying, power sliding, bucking, unrestricted, unfilter, raw power bikes that put much more emphasis on rider control and finesse and guts and experience...and less control to the backoffice software engineers.....and you will see more show. It may be slower, may not be as clinically fast, it may not be as high tech, it may go against our desire to show the most efficient and "best" technology....but it will certainly make racing fun to watch.
IMHO.
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
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I agree somewhat but think the issues of MGP simply aren't based in electronics. There are more issues to address.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Baldy
The largest cost of racing today is electronics.
EDIT: Ok, I'll revise this as I don't have proof of this, but will say rather that electronics is a very major and key part of the cost of modern MGP racing.
No idea on where electronics sit but the issue again isn't electronics or at least electronics aren't as major a part as people think; it's the failure of the modern 4 stroke era to live up to its hype.
Remember the 4 stroke era was supposed to be cheaper... yeah that never happened from day one. Also the 4 stroke era is meant to be a closer showcase of technology and more of a first step towards the street than WSC is. Given the current OTT performance of modern superbikes eletronic aids are the future of motorcycles not outright BHP anymore... MGP needs to be a showcase of the future and the future is elelctronics.
Quote:
True..it was the relative lack of SHOW, because the fourstrokes were a much milder, more controllable, easier to ride machine than the bucking, torque-spiking, wild wheelying, high-siding 2-strokes. The new MGP bikes take the speed vs "show" aspects to another level. And the bikes are now even LESS unwieldy to ride while being faster. Faster, yes. More fun to watch? Some will say No!
I agree the 4 strokes had a mystic partly because there was nothing comparable on the street, no real modern performance 4 strokes but also the 4 stroke era had more champs overall fighting day in day out.
Certainly not Rossi's fault, but his dominance akin to Schumacher in F1 or Mladin in AMA ruins the show.
The same as Doohan's era... the issue is no real rival to take the fight to them daily/yearly. Rainey had Schwantz, Roberts had Sheene, Edwards - Bayliss... etc. Rossi... not a real rival year in year out.
Rossi at least made a good step forward to break being another Doohan/Honda, Mladin/Suzuki or Foggy/Ducati type of champion on only one type of bike/one team but even that didn't really last when he started winning day one on the arguably second class bike of the paddock.
Perhaps his current teammate may prove to be his equal but Rossi is in the twilight of his career, at his peak there simply wasn't anyone. It's enjoyable to watch the records mount etc. but it hurts the show.
Quote:
Nope. Rossi has been saying the same thing for YEARS...even when he was world champ and indisputably the fastest guy out there. He's been pretty consistent in this exact same message. As have a few others.
True but I think his statement doesn't carry the weight it used to when electronics weren't as much of a factor on the road as they are today - pre S1000RR, Ducati 1098S TC, fly by wire etc.
Today the rationale - the show v. lower crashes, lower number of injuries overall etc. favour the development of electronics. Early on it was debateable but the success of electronics is plain to see and again the future of MGP and motorcycles in general is electronic aids.
Quote:
Me? I agree with him. Give me the wheelying, power sliding, bucking, unrestricted, unfilter, raw power bikes that put much more emphasis on rider control and finesse and guts and experience...and less control to the backoffice software engineers.....and you will see more show. It may be slower, may not be as clinically fast, it may not be as high tech, it may go against our desire to show the most efficient and "best" technology....but it will certainly make racing fun to watch.
You'll see more crashes and injuries too. The modern MGP era is much safer than the eras bygone.
Again I think this is just blowing smoke and mental tactics. He knows the electronics aren't going away. Imagine losing TC while WSC has TC? How can MGP be the superior technical class when WSC has something it doesn't just because the star attraction doesn't like it? That's not going to stand.
The show will suffer more once Rossi leaves than whether electronic aids are removed imo.
__________________
2006 BMW HP2
2011 Husqvarna TE630
Sour grapes are a lesser man's fruit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop The [fact] that the RC45 was a "relative failure" is what matters most...
Me thinks this was just a headline grabbing moment for Rossi since there really wasn't merit in his claims or his performance this past weekend. It's a small dig at Pedrosa etal that they couldn't have beat him if the electronics weren't there. It's mind games again.
Just another "Hey, look at me! I still race!" moment from him to stay relevant. It's got to be killing him that no one sees him back in 8th-9th place for the first 3 sessions of the weekend.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgrn
why don'y you do yourself a favor and put me on ignore
there has been outcry from the racers concerning every technological advancement since motorcycles have been raced. radial tires, disc brakes, liquid cooling, fuel injection, hell even rear suspension. All were bitched about by somebody at one point, usually with the words "ruining racing" used.
Electronics obviously dont make the bike a winner under anybody. Even the lowliest of satt teams in motogp has traction control and anti-wheelie, etc, so why arent they running up front with everyone else? Yes the electronics do make the bike easier to ride, but they dont add the talent still needed to ride the bike fast enough to win races.
Rossi bitches, but he's won several titles using the very thing he supposedly wants to do away with. Maybe Rossi should lead by example and take all electronic aids off his bike and show us how much better it is. My money says he wants them back within 2 practice sessions, if he stays off the ground that long. After all this is the guy who said "power delivery is the key to a fast lap time" (quote not exact) Well guess what makes the power delivery on your 240hp MotoGP engine so user-friendly? Surely its not electronics?
there has been outcry from the racers concerning every technological advancement since motorcycles have been raced. radial tires, disc brakes, liquid cooling, fuel injection, hell even rear suspension. All were bitched about by somebody at one point, usually with the words "ruining racing" used.
Electronics obviously dont make the bike a winner under anybody. Even the lowliest of satt teams in motogp has traction control and anti-wheelie, etc, so why arent they running up front with everyone else? Yes the electronics do make the bike easier to ride, but they dont add the talent still needed to ride the bike fast enough to win races.
Rossi bitches, but he's won several titles using the very thing he supposedly wants to do away with. Maybe Rossi should lead by example and take all electronic aids off his bike and show us how much better it is. My money says he wants them back within 2 practice sessions, if he stays off the ground that long. After all this is the guy who said "power delivery is the key to a fast lap time" (quote not exact) Well guess what makes the power delivery on your 240hp MotoGP engine so user-friendly? Surely its not electronics?
I think you entirely missed the point. Neither Rossi, nor anyone else that I'm aware of, is saying that electronics does not help the bikes be faster, safer, etc. Rossi says, and many of us agree with him, that the electronic controls are reducing the role of the rider and moving more emphasis on the machinery.....and that THIS is a key issue in that it is causing the "procession" of MGP racing as we see it today. Think about it....when the machinery itself plays a larger role (not the ONLY role, of course, as you correctly mentioned, but a larger role...) in the overall performance of the speed around the track, and the rider has LESS effect on the outcome, then the overall competitiveness of that bike is almost predetermined before the race gets under way. (an exageration, but I'm trying to make a point).
If the rider has the crutch of perfect engine torque being applied to maximize the available tire grip, lap by lap, corner by corner, metre by metre, and that is all predetermined by the software package algorythms that some clever guy back in Japan/Italy programmed into the system....cutting wheelspin, cutting wheelies, saving fuel to finish the race with less than a cup of fuel left in the tank, etc, etc, etc then.....there is MUCH less rider variation in the outcome. There is no way for a magnificent rider to apply extraordinary skills to overcome a poorer performing rider, when that weaker talent simply has to peg the throttle and let the bike think about traction, fuel, wheely prevention, highsides, etc, etc.
yes, yes, I know and agree...that it is NOT only the bike and the software and there REMAINS some fairly significant rider talent aspect to this, but I think you should agree that the effect is diminshed.
I'd suggest that the racing is not as close today as we had before electronics. I'd suggest that we see SIGNIFICANTLY less passing and podium position battle now than what we saw prior to 2006 era. Does ANYONE disagree with that?
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
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I think it's fair to say that the young generaion of GP riders wouldn't do as well with fewer electronic aids . There are a number of MotoGP test ride articles by journos in which they are told to merely "lean and peg it 'cause the box will take care of the rest ." And I don't know that the aids make racing safer ; sure , a few lesser talents will crash more until they slow down , but the aliens will adjust sooner and of course slow down too . So the end result would be slower (less fast) lap times and a chance for the truly gifted to rise to the top . The machines would still be the most advanced but in the sense true aficionados want , i.e. beastly power , wispy weight , sublime handling , stellar reliability . I don't think this would necessarily make the racing any closer though , since the best riders would still just run away ; so it's unlikely the e-aids will be eliminated .
Mik , the spaghetti-man doesn't care about racing . He's waiting for that elusive 430 pound , 95 HP , $13K , 600cc V4 which would of course be the epitome of sportbikedom . Oh why oh why won't anyone build it ?!
Rossi say's deep six electronic aides...
.
yeah that never happened from day one. Also the 4 stroke era is meant to be a closer showcase of technology and more of a first step towards the street than WSC is. Given the current OTT performance of modern superbikes eletronic aids are the future of motorcycles not outright BHP anymore... MGP needs to be a showcase of the future and the future is elelctronics. 
) lap times and a chance for the truly gifted to rise to the top . The machines would still be the most advanced but in the sense true aficionados want , i.e. beastly power , wispy weight , sublime handling , stellar reliability . I don't think this would necessarily make the racing any closer though , since the best riders would still just run away ;
so it's unlikely the e-aids will be eliminated .
Right Larry? 
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