The guy coming up on the inside. Its a trackday youre not going to win anything you should hold off on the pass until you can complete it before the apex.
The bobo who wanted to "race" the control rider by riding up the inside of an unsuspecting track day participant.
I'm seen this many a time, and the end result usually isn't this good. Let's just hope the person with the on-board video wasn't a control rider himself.
I agree with UNION. It's only a track day. If it would have been a WSBK or AMA I would still say they guy with the camera did not have enough room for the pass.
Camera has a way of making it look closer than it is. I have done that many times at a trackday only I completed the pass. Seems to me the guy was not committed enough. Looks like though if he had made the pass he would have run wide negating any advantage. I agree a trackday is not the place to be practicing this.
Passing at track days... what a nightmare it can be!
Not beacuse the riders being passed are slow, running goofball lines, and doing unpredictable n00b things that make no sense. All that stuff happens, true.
But the reason passing at a track day is stressful is the arbitrary and unnatural rules about passing, and the righteous indignation displayed by n00b riders when the useless, and often dangerous rules are "broken" by a faster more experinced rider.
Rules I hate:
Passing allowed only on the outside.
Minimum distance (the inviolable three foot bubble - don't let your bubble touch anyone else's bubble)
Here's what happens: The slowest, most nervous n00b in your session rides around the entire track at 1/2 pace within a foot of the outside of every corner. You approach him from behind at a ridiculous, and truly dangerous closing speed because he has closed the throttle an eighth of a mile early. You look to the outside because that's where you're supposed to pass. He swings out to the paint, and it's too late to scrub the speed. To avoid killing the n00b and yourself, you shift inside at the last minute, violating both rules. The n00b s#!ts himself, and he and a corner worker both correctly report you for breaking the rules. The track day organizer either dresses you down in the pit, or throws you out.
If there had been no rule #1, there would have been no violation of rule #2. You wouldn't have given a second thought to passing "crazy lines" from a huge safe distance on the inside.
Further, the n00bs who get passed in the scariest way are the least able to judge how close a pass was. The guy who dropped anchor way too early for the corner and swung way out couldn't estimate 6 feet distance correctly if you held a gun to his head. Holding a gun to his head wouldn't be any more stressful, really.
Track days are populated by a 50/50 split of people who know exactly what they are doing, and people who haven't got a clue about how to ride a motorcycle. Arbitrary passing rules don't keep n00bs safe so much as they take good tools away from the riders who know what they are doing.
Think about it: When do the worst riders ever need to worry about how to pass? Those rules only affect the skilled riders, and the net effect is to reduce the number of safe options you have for navigating the n00bs. How does that help in any way?
Flame away if you must. But you should know that I have essentially quit track days because I can't get excited about spending hundreds of dollars to be forced to ride in an unsafe way around a bunch of no-skill n00bs who are entitled to every inch of the track.
"Exercise restraint and discipline, only responding to posts from legit customers and those with constructive positive intent, you will find that the handgrenades explode harmlessly. You have many satisfied customers who are happy to have the parts you've made. My suggestion to you is keep making good parts, keep getting more customers, take care of them and let them speak for you."
It sounds like you don't like riders who are in the wrong class for there
skill set. Thats why they have ametuer,intermeidiate and expert. To try
and medigate the issues you(we all) hate. Mistakes,as the video showed
can and do happen in any class though. The guy being passed was not going that slow. As evidenced by the guy running up the inside coming in to hot and blowing the corner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by banda
Passing at track days... what a nightmare it can be!
Not beacuse the riders being passed are slow, running goofball lines, and doing unpredictable n00b things that make no sense. All that stuff happens, true.
But the reason passing at a track day is stressful is the arbitrary and unnatural rules about passing, and the righteous indignation displayed by n00b riders when the useless, and often dangerous rules are "broken" by a faster more experinced rider.
Rules I hate:
Passing allowed only on the outside.
Minimum distance (the inviolable three foot bubble - don't let your bubble touch anyone else's bubble)
Here's what happens: The slowest, most nervous n00b in your session rides around the entire track at 1/2 pace within a foot of the outside of every corner. You approach him from behind at a ridiculous, and truly dangerous closing speed because he has closed the throttle an eighth of a mile early. You look to the outside because that's where you're supposed to pass. He swings out to the paint, and it's too late to scrub the speed. To avoid killing the n00b and yourself, you shift inside at the last minute, violating both rules. The n00b s#!ts himself, and he and a corner worker both correctly report you for breaking the rules. The track day organizer either dresses you down in the pit, or throws you out.
If there had been no rule #1, there would have been no violation of rule #2. You wouldn't have given a second thought to passing "crazy lines" from a huge safe distance on the inside.
Further, the n00bs who get passed in the scariest way are the least able to judge how close a pass was. The guy who dropped anchor way too early for the corner and swung way out couldn't estimate 6 feet distance correctly if you held a gun to his head. Holding a gun to his head wouldn't be any more stressful, really.
Track days are populated by a 50/50 split of people who know exactly what they are doing, and people who haven't got a clue about how to ride a motorcycle. Arbitrary passing rules don't keep n00bs safe so much as they take good tools away from the riders who know what they are doing.
Think about it: When do the worst riders ever need to worry about how to pass? Those rules only affect the skilled riders, and the net effect is to reduce the number of safe options you have for navigating the n00bs. How does that help in any way?
Flame away if you must. But you should know that I have essentially quit track days because I can't get excited about spending hundreds of dollars to be forced to ride in an unsafe way around a bunch of no-skill n00bs who are entitled to every inch of the track.
It sounds like you don't like riders who are in the wrong class for there
skill set. Thats why they have ametuer,intermeidiate and expert. To try
and medigate the issues you(we all) hate. Mistakes,as the video showed
can and do happen in any class though. The guy being passed was not going that slow. As evidenced by the guy running up the inside coming in to hot and blowing the corner.
You're right on two counts:
I didn't watch the video. I'll do so when I'm not at work.
Having the wrong mix of riders in a class is a big cause of these problems.
My local trackday org has three classes, the top is reserved for licensed riders with race glass. The bottom is parade laps for rank beginners. The intermediate class is everyone else: Every guy who has done the parade laps once all the way up to the bottom half of the CCS licensed racers. It is pandemonium, with multiple sesisons red flagged (the first one of the day ALWAYS red flagged). The org's response to the pandemonium is not to better split up the riders but to think up new ways to alter how the riders ride.
It's not fun.
I can go find the limits of my dirtbike at a twentieth of the cost, and there's no one else micromanging my lines or telling me when to ride and when to sit down.
Webman, you're on the camera bike? I know this guy who has this problem....
As said, different track orgs will have different rules so, in my opinion, it is the responsibiliy of the passing rider to make a clean pass, it doesn't matter how slow, or how wobbly the rider ahead is. If the passing rider doesn't have the ability to make a clean pass, even after showing a wheel, then exit the track and re enter, most likely the two riders won't meet again that session. I believe there is an exception. If a wheel is shown in in a few consecutive corners, than the rider ahead could accellerate out of the next corner at a slightly slower rate and let the rider behind by. The rider ahead should never "move" over and let the rider by - what if there is an even faster rider setting up to pass both? If the responsibility fell on the rider ahead, they would consistanly be looking behind and trying to move out of the way etc.. now that would be silly wouldn't it?
As said, different track orgs will have different rules so, in my opinion, it is the responsibiliy of the passing rider to make a clean pass, it doesn't matter how slow, or how wobbly the rider ahead is. If the passing rider doesn't have the ability to make a clean pass, even after showing a wheel, then exit the track and re enter, most likely the two riders won't meet again that session. I believe there is an exception. If a wheel is shown in in a few consecutive corners, than the rider ahead could accellerate out of the next corner at a slightly slower rate and let the rider behind by. The rider ahead should never "move" over and let the rider by - what if there is an even faster rider setting up to pass both? If the responsibility fell on the rider ahead, they would consistanly be looking behind and trying to move out of the way etc.. now that would be silly wouldn't it?
You describe a situation where it's hard for the "faster" rider to pass because he's frankly not that much faster. Everything you said about that situation is correct.
I'm talking about stupid rules that make it "illegal" or "forbidden" or whatever to make a clean pass on a rider when it would be so easy (and so much safer) to do so.
Passing on the outside (or at least taking a line to the outside at the corner entry) is a great rule of thumb for safe passing in a situation where the passer and the passee are closely matched. It's a really piss-poor idea when you have a 20 mph differential on a guy who is hugging the outside paint. But rules are rules!
You describe a situation where it's hard for the "faster" rider to pass because he's frankly not that much faster. Everything you said about that situation is correct.
I'm talking about stupid rules that make it "illegal" or "forbidden" or whatever to make a clean pass on a rider when it would be so easy (and so much safer) to do so.
Passing on the outside (or at least taking a line to the outside at the corner entry) is a great rule of thumb for safe passing in a situation where the passer and the passee are closely matched. It's a really piss-poor idea when you have a 20 mph differential on a guy who is hugging the outside paint. But rules are rules!
i wonder about the drift factor of the slower rider drifting towards the outside blocking the rider from passing the outsite?
this whoe thing raises some serious concerns i have as a would be new to track day guy who wants to get more safely involved, yet that does not seem to be the case
I am a do what i have to do to get home safe guy and that has worked for almost 23 years so far and i would be kicking fukkin people if they got near me. I read this thread on the CBR forum i think where some tool just crashed this other guy and totaled his bike and nothing happened
This whole track day deal sounds like a way to lose lots of money and possibly get hurt with little or no recourse or protection
"Exercise restraint and discipline, only responding to posts from legit customers and those with constructive positive intent, you will find that the handgrenades explode harmlessly. You have many satisfied customers who are happy to have the parts you've made. My suggestion to you is keep making good parts, keep getting more customers, take care of them and let them speak for you."
Regardless of what rules are being utilized, the cardinal rule of all track activities is that it is the responsibility of the overtaking rider or driver to make a clean and safe pass. The camera bike in this instance failed in this regard. Luckily no contact was made, so everone goes home happy (change of underpants of camera rider notwithstanding)......
You describe a situation where it's hard for the "faster" rider to pass because he's frankly not that much faster. Everything you said about that situation is correct.
I'm talking about stupid rules that make it "illegal" or "forbidden" or whatever to make a clean pass on a rider when it would be so easy (and so much safer) to do so.
Passing on the outside (or at least taking a line to the outside at the corner entry) is a great rule of thumb for safe passing in a situation where the passer and the passee are closely matched. It's a really piss-poor idea when you have a 20 mph differential on a guy who is hugging the outside paint. But rules are rules!
I understand that some riders can swoop from the outside edge of the track at corner entry, hit the apex on the inside edge and cross the whole track back to the outside edge on exit. I've seen it time and time again, maybe even been guilty of it a few times in my youth... and more often than not, it's not the fastest way around the track. The org that I ride with doesn't have outside only passing so I thankfully cannot share your frustrations. I would suggest a three foot length of chain or a lead pipe to take care of those pesky riders.
Yeah, but the rush (reward) is overwelmingly greater than the risk for most.
i understand for sure but i am not in a position to lose 10k in a crash not caused by me trying to have a safe track day. I also don't belive in raising everybodies insurance and saying i hit a dear either.
"Exercise restraint and discipline, only responding to posts from legit customers and those with constructive positive intent, you will find that the handgrenades explode harmlessly. You have many satisfied customers who are happy to have the parts you've made. My suggestion to you is keep making good parts, keep getting more customers, take care of them and let them speak for you."
Whos fault?
I just can't afford to fall off as much as I remember doing it in my youth.
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