I am coming clean. I am bent out of shape about track days because I had a bad experience with my local org.
I got a stern talking to, with threat of ejection at a track day based on the complaint made by another rider. The complaint was that I passed him too close in two successive sessions. Both incidents happened in the same spot. Both times I passed the guy on the outside at the entrance to turn one after the longest straight on the course. I was riding a Speed Four (think de-tuned first gen Triumph 600 SS), he was on a race preped TL1000R. Had he been riding anywhere near the potential of his bike, there's no way a guy on a 85hp street bike with well used street tires should be pipping him at the end of the straight. In my opinion, I gave him more than the required amount of berth, and I certainly didn't take his line. But being the fastest part of the track, and being obviously uncomfortable at that speed, this B rider's discomfort was apparently greatly magnified by my presence in his vicinity.
My dad and wife and daughter were all right there when I got my ass chewed. I was surprised when it happened, and I was embarassed. The guy who chewed my ass didn't tell me any of the who, what or where of the complaint, just that I had better clean up my act or they were going to throw me out and ban me from future events.
I asked around on the org's web forum to find the person I offended, and he related the story. He was pretty nice about it. I apologized for making him uncomfortable.
And then I was pissed about how it was handled, and said so on the org's forum. And that got me a whole lot of love. Actually I got a lot of very poorly reasoned derision and hate pointed my way for everything from my pathetic B class lap times to my choice of gloves. It dawned on me that this was a very insular group of semi-literate jackoffs who could give a rat's ass about what anyone else thought of their track days because they weren't in it to grow the business or the sport, they just used track day fees from non-members to subsidize rental of the facility for their own fun.
I further realized that I don't want to spend a dollar fifty a minute to ride with people who hate me.
It makes me sad, that the people in my area who are most interested in what I'm interested in happen to be a boquet of assholes. Or maybe I'm the asshole. Whatever. We don't see eye to eye.
I am not sure if you are upset about how you were approached or what was said. My opinion, based upon what you wrote, is you were an unsafe rider. First, you placed yourself and other riders at risk when you participated in the track day with "well worn street tires". Secondly, that you think he was partially at fault because he had a bigger bike is just wrong and suggests that you would benefit from riding instruction. It sounds like you may have stuffed him, twice. Like someone else stated, I suggest you learn from the experience rather than bag on track days and/or slower riders. Not intending to flame or pick a fight with you Banda- we have both been members of the board for a while. You have shared some good technical advice. Just suggesting that you rethink this...
I am not sure if you are upset about how you were approached or what was said. My opinion, based upon what you wrote, is you were an unsafe rider. First, you placed yourself and other riders at risk when you participated in the track day with "well worn street tires". Secondly, that you think he was partially at fault because he had a bigger bike is just wrong and suggests that you would benefit from riding instruction. It sounds like you may have stuffed him, twice. Like someone else stated, I suggest you learn from the experience rather than bag on track days and/or slower riders. Not intending to flame or pick a fight with you Banda- we have both been members of the board for a while. You have shared some good technical advice. Just suggesting that you rethink this...
Your take on the situation is absolutely worth thinking about. I was mortified at the time because I was worried that I had actually endangered somebody or done something stupid. I felt awful, but I had no idea when it would have happened or where.
The tire thing is a red herring. The bike is my street bike. It had a set of tires with three previous track days on them, and little else. With years of amateur supermoto and flattrack racing, I can feel what my tires are doing. I know when the grip level is changing. On the track day in question, I was riding within my abilities, and was well aware of what my tires could and couldn't do. For instance, I couldn't keep pace with the control rider on the out lap in turns 5 and 6, both front and rear would push at lean. I could go 9/10s for 5 full laps before the rear got greasy and would spin at the exit of the last turn, or I could go 8/10s for the whole session. I know what's up with my tires and how to ride to keep things right side up.
Other riders on that thread commented that I had passed them several times that day, and never with any drama, or at an unsafe distance. I know how to pass. I was not taking chances.
I didn't bag on the slower rider at all. He reported what he thought was a violation of a track day rule. He was mistaking his surprise or lack of concentration for unsafe behavior by me. I don't think it was. I executed clean passes around the outside at a more than safe distance. His perception was different. My conclusion was not to blame him, but to critique a pointless rule. If new riders were taught to expect faster riders passing them at appropriate places on the track in acceptably safe ways, this would never have happened. Instead we leave it to the most timid rider on the track to judge if the guy who just passed him was more or less than 6 feet away. To him, at 90 mph, 20 feet looked like less than 6. In my perception, cruising around at a track day on a pretty day, I had all the room in the world, and didn't think twice about it. This is why I had no idea where the complaint came from.
Even if the complaining rider in question had thought that I did something dangerous (turns out on reflection he didn't, he was just reporting the "rule" breaking) I would have still felt really bad and would have changed my decision making algorithm for future track days.
But I am confident that I didn't endanger anyone. I am certain that I didn't even break the rule. I would have liked to have not been humiliated in front of my kid. Even that I could overlook if an adult conversation could have come out of it later to clear things up. But it's what happened weeks later when I suggested a discussion about how the rule might be over rigid and under productive that the little clique of a track day club shat all over me. It was not my place to talk to them of such things, apparently.
Stupid rules. Stupid people. Too expensive. If even one of those things would change I would go back.
Your take on the situation is absolutely worth thinking about. I was mortified at the time because I was worried that I had actually endangered somebody or done something stupid. I felt awful, but I had no idea when it would have happened or where.
The tire thing is a red herring. The bike is my street bike. It had a set of tires with three previous track days on them, and little else. With years of amateur supermoto and flattrack racing, I can feel what my tires are doing. I know when the grip level is changing. On the track day in question, I was riding within my abilities, and was well aware of what my tires could and couldn't do. For instance, I couldn't keep pace with the control rider on the out lap in turns 5 and 6, both front and rear would push at lean. I could go 9/10s for 5 full laps before the rear got greasy and would spin at the exit of the last turn, or I could go 8/10s for the whole session. I know what's up with my tires and how to ride to keep things right side up.
Other riders on that thread commented that I had passed them several times that day, and never with any drama, or at an unsafe distance. I know how to pass. I was not taking chances.
I didn't bag on the slower rider at all. He reported what he thought was a violation of a track day rule. He was mistaking his surprise or lack of concentration for unsafe behavior by me. I don't think it was. I executed clean passes around the outside at a more than safe distance. His perception was different. My conclusion was not to blame him, but to critique a pointless rule. If new riders were taught to expect faster riders passing them at appropriate places on the track in acceptably safe ways, this would never have happened. Instead we leave it to the most timid rider on the track to judge if the guy who just passed him was more or less than 6 feet away. To him, at 90 mph, 20 feet looked like less than 6. In my perception, cruising around at a track day on a pretty day, I had all the room in the world, and didn't think twice about it. This is why I had no idea where the complaint came from.
Even if the complaining rider in question had thought that I did something dangerous (turns out on reflection he didn't, he was just reporting the "rule" breaking) I would have still felt really bad and would have changed my decision making algorithm for future track days.
But I am confident that I didn't endanger anyone. I am certain that I didn't even break the rule. I would have liked to have not been humiliated in front of my kid. Even that I could overlook if an adult conversation could have come out of it later to clear things up. But it's what happened weeks later when I suggested a discussion about how the rule might be over rigid and under productive that the little clique of a track day club shat all over me. It was not my place to talk to them of such things, apparently.
Stupid rules. Stupid people. Too expensive. If even one of those things would change I would go back.
i can see where the whole attack lecture in front of your kid sucked and i would have been lucky not to beaten the person yelling at me. I am all for taking your licks, but being slapped with it at the same time is bull and uncalled for.
I have gotten alot so far out of this thread in many ways and i am sorry for the crap you have dealt with too
"Exercise restraint and discipline, only responding to posts from legit customers and those with constructive positive intent, you will find that the handgrenades explode harmlessly. You have many satisfied customers who are happy to have the parts you've made. My suggestion to you is keep making good parts, keep getting more customers, take care of them and let them speak for you."
Banda, what track org were you riding with when this happened?
You know, the next thousand people who ride with them won't have any such problem, so what's the point?
I'll probably go ride one of their track days again some day. But I'll wear a disguise. And I'll know better than to try and "contribute".
So what do we know?
1) Rules are easy to wite down and enforce, even if they are hard to evaluate for effectiveness.
2) Stay the heck away from other riders at a track day
3) Banda is bitter
oh yeah...
4) Set up your pass on the outside - if you can't do it that way, then your chances of passing safely are too slim; Don't do it.
This thread has been rather productive, and I'm right there with ya Banda, a little bit of tact would have gone a long ways. I'm kinda like Mark in that I would have had a hard time not beating his ass. But again, there's a time and a place for everything, and in front of my kid aint the time or place. He should have been courteous enough to pull you aside, and talk about things in a more private setting. You did the the best you could, and I give you props for not punching his lights out...
You know, the next thousand people who ride with them won't have any such problem, so what's the point?
I'll probably go ride one of their track days again some day. But I'll wear a disguise. And I'll know better than to try and "contribute".
So what do we know?
1) Rules are easy to wite down and enforce, even if they are hard to evaluate for effectiveness.
2) Stay the heck away from other riders at a track day
3) Banda is bitter
oh yeah...
4) Set up your pass on the outside - if you can't do it that way, then your chances of passing safely are too slim; Don't do it.
Banda,
I hate self righteous 'hall monitors'. That mentality sucks and is ever present at some clubs. Which org was this and which event?
Sarge WAS race control, not control rider... she's gone now
Passing on the outside of turns is only in Novice group...
the Intermediate group is supposed to be riders with better skills, and better judgement... in theory
I'll beat the dead horse and say the camera bike was in the wrong.
I only take offense to this, because i was taken out by a guy doing exactly what the camera bike did, Exactly... only differences: T-13, and no camera on board. I spent a week in the hospital and had to rebuild my daily rider bike.
I'll beat the dead horse and say the camera bike was in the wrong.
I only take offense to this, because i was taken out by a guy doing exactly what the camera bike did, Exactly... only differences: T-13, and no camera on board. I spent a week in the hospital and had to rebuild my daily rider bike.
Sorry to hear that.....T-13 is one hell of a right turn at the end of the back straight so that is where a lot of passing is set up before hitting the front straight....have been passed there a bunch and returned the favor the next session....the cornering speeds there make it pretty much an ambulance ride if you go down.
On that note, I have to come clean and admit to having been in a collision in T-2 with another rider.....I passed him on the inside and he came down on me and hit me in the exhaust can....I kept control and just rode off into the sand.....way off into the sand.....was waiting for the crash truck to come help me out when it passed me by and I turned around to see that the other bike was on the track and the rider down.....he was a good friend of mine....broke his collarbone and left him with a big knot on his head....I went to see him in the ambulance to make sure he was okay and to say I was sorry that it happened....we yakked until it was time for him to go....Sarge came on the PA to say that there would be no further passing that day in T-2......we were all "WTF".
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Only one left not in captivity.
Sorry to hear that.....T-13 is one hell of a right turn at the end of the back straight so that is where a lot of passing is set up before hitting the front straight....have been passed there a bunch and returned the favor the next session....the cornering speeds there make it pretty much an ambulance ride if you go down.
On that note, I have to come clean and admit to having been in a collision in T-2 with another rider.....I passed him on the inside and he came down on me and hit me in the exhaust can....I kept control and just rode off into the sand.....way off into the sand.....was waiting for the crash truck to come help me out when it passed me by and I turned around to see that the other bike was on the track and the rider down.....he was a good friend of mine....broke his collarbone and left him with a big knot on his head....I went to see him in the ambulance to make sure he was okay and to say I was sorry that it happened....we yakked until it was time for him to go....Sarge came on the PA to say that there would be no further passing that day in T-2......we were all "WTF".
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