did I miss the part where he disclosed the firing sequence. listen the nomenclature of GP is so vague and veiled in secrecy that we never truly know what the hell they're calling "screamer" and "big bang". until one of us pulls sound clips and an oscilloscope out our ass then it's just a semantical and subjective argument about one particular aspect of the vernacular.
all we can argue is about what we know and that is what has already hit the streets.
now personally I wouldn't consider the Honda 360* V4 a "big bang" and that is what OB is getting at. It's more of a "long bang" engine.(remember that term from a few years back, seems to have been lost) four bangs one right after another make the crank see one really long bang.
I would consider the Ducati "twin pulse" V4 a "big bang" engine as cylinders are fired in pair. like two V-twins attached to each other with the cranks phased exactly the same. two bangs at the same time make the crank see one big bang followed by another big bang shortly after.
all that being said if you look up definitions of these terms you get differing views of what is what. including speak of the new Yamaha being called a "big bang" which it's not. (I think even Larry will agree with that) Now Yamaha calls it a crossplane crank not "big bang" which every body including the press has inaccurately dubbed it. when in fact it mimics the crank phasing of the Honda 180* V4 of the VFRs. which we've all come to fondly know as the "screamer" V4.
so what have we learned from all of this?
1) there is no set perfect definitions of what is what in the crank phasing vernacular.
2) two engines with the same crank phasing can be called both "screamer" and "big bang"
3)the type of "bang" comes from the power pulses that a crank sees throughout it's cycle.
4) inline or v configurations have nothing to do with the type of "bang". it is simply a matter of packaging.
5)until we all; as a motorcycle community, get this sorted out including those who are sworn to secrecy on the paddocks around the globe we are all simply arguing semantics. semantics based solely on speculation of what some heavily accented Italian guy meant when he said "big bang"
did I miss the part where he disclosed the firing sequence. listen the nomenclature of GP is so vague and veiled in secrecy that we never truly know what the hell they're calling "screamer" and "big bang". until one of us pulls sound clips and an oscilloscope out our ass then it's just a semantical and subjective argument about one particular aspect of the vernacular.
all we can argue is about what we know and that is what has already hit the streets.
now personally I wouldn't consider the Honda 360* V4 a "big bang" and that is what OB is getting at. It's more of a "long bang" engine.(remember that term from a few years back, seems to have been lost) four bangs one right after another make the crank see one really long bang.
I would consider the Ducati "twin pulse" V4 a "big bang" engine as cylinders are fired in pair. like two V-twins attached to each other with the cranks phased exactly the same. two bangs at the same time make the crank see one big bang followed by another big bang shortly after.
all that being said if you look up definitions of these terms you get differing views of what is what. including speak of the new Yamaha being called a "big bang" which it's not. (I think even Larry will agree with that) Now Yamaha calls it a crossplane crank not "big bang" which every body including the press has inaccurately dubbed it. when in fact it mimics the crank phasing of the Honda 180* V4 of the VFRs. which we've all come to fondly know as the "screamer" V4.
so what have we learned from all of this?
1) there is no set perfect definitions of what is what in the crank phasing vernacular.
2) two engines with the same crank phasing can be called both "screamer" and "big bang"
3)the type of "bang" comes from the power pulses that a crank sees throughout it's cycle.
4) inline or v configurations have nothing to do with the type of "bang". it is simply a matter of packaging.
5)until we all; as a motorcycle community, get this sorted out including those who are sworn to secrecy on the paddocks around the globe we are all simply arguing semantics. semantics based solely on speculation of what some heavily accented Italian guy meant when he said "big bang"
did I miss anything here.
No. I agree 100% with everything you said in your summary.
For Larry - the current street Desmocedici has a much more big-bang (close firing sequences followed by a long ignition rest period) timing than your beloved RC45/RC30, which has a much more regular interval between its firing sequences. Crank phasing is only HALF of the ignition sequence (big bang) configuration. You think that because each bank of your V shares a common crank pin, the motor is automatically a "Big Bang",but this is only really true in racing terms, if both cylinders fired together - which yours does not.
Until the little pointy bits on each of your cams all point in the same direction, you are stuck with the "screamer" version of the 360 degree V4 configuration, despite your common crank pin. You can call it "Big Bang" if you wish (Lord knows...some magazine writers make the same mistake), but it's very much a screamer in the current racing terms.
Your piston firing events are not simultaneous, but phased apart 360 degrees to fire alternately on each bank of your V. The net effect is not what is considered a "big bang" in modern racing circles. It is, at best, a little bit "more" big bang than the 180 V4 crank of the other street Hondas.
The 70 degree offset pin Desmocedici on the other hand, with its reversed firing sequence, has a much close firing sequence followed by a much longer rest period than your RC45/RC30....it is very much MORE a "big bang" than your RC45/RC30 motors.......and this is all in response to your comment that Ducati should redesign their motors to become "big bang" like your RC45/RC30 motors.
Phew!
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
Kawasaki KLR 650 '02
Kawasaki KLR650 '06 OB's Blog
The 70 degree offset pin Desmocedici on the other hand, with its reversed firing sequence, has a much close firing sequence followed by a much longer rest period than your RC45/RC30....it is very much MORE a "big bang" than your RC45/RC30 motors.......and this is all in response to your comment that Ducati should redesign their motors to become "big bang" like your RC45/RC30 motors.
Phew!
Close but no cigar... big bangers don't sport offset pins... big bangers have
360º cranks like the RC30 / RC45...
so hypothetically a 90* V4 crank with the rod journals(2) staggered 90*. and the cams lobes were set so that all 4 pistons fired at the same time. In your opinion it would not be a big bang engine because it's journals are staggered? is that what you are saying Larry? because that is what it sounds like.
Ducati had a true Big Bang engine in the 990 days yet moved away from this to develop the Twin Pulse as used in their D16RR. Somehow, I think they knew what they were doing....
A 360 degree crank does not a Big Bang engine make and the RC30 and 45 are NOT Big Bang engines. If they fired both cylinder banks together they would be but that is not the case...
Finally, in working out the new phasing of the crank on their M1, Yamaha had a clean sheet to work with and opted for a configuration that is quite close to a 180 degree V4 (with 90 degree spacing). They COULD have copied the "screamer" design like the RC45 but chose not to. The reasons listed by them have to do with the need to better harmonize the two types of inertia at work in the engine for better throttle control by the rider. Their winning record since then makes it rather clear that they made the right choice.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled RC45 delusions....
so hypothetically a 90* V4 crank with the rod journals(2) staggered 90*. and the cams lobes were set so that all 4 pistons fired at the same time. In your opinion it would not be a big bang engine because it's journals are staggered? is that what you are saying Larry? because that is what it sounds like.
Close but no cigar... big bangers don't sport offset pins... big bangers have
360º cranks like the RC30 / RC45...
Not even close Larry. Guess again....after you have mapped out the ignition firing events.
Remember, the rear tire does not CARE what the engine looks like, it only "sees" the firing sequence of the motor's cylinders....how the IGNITION events are sequenced in terms of degrees from one another. The simple, indisputable, truth is that the current Desmocedici fires its cylinders in a very quick sequence then has a long 340 degree rest period, while your common pin 360 V4 RC45/RC30 spreads its four separate ignition sequences further apart and more evenly, and has a shorter, 270 degree rest period.
So....we've gone from "How the 999 nearly killed Ducati" to ANOTHER FRIGGIN' DISCUSSION ON THE FRIGGIN' V4 with a person who still doesn't get it and who, by choice, never will.
So....we've gone from "How the 999 nearly killed Ducati" to ANOTHER FRIGGIN' DISCUSSION ON THE FRIGGIN' V4 with a person who still doesn't get it and who, by choice, never will.
the one bitch I had with the styling they fixed right away.
I'm not sure if it was by model or all of them, but what I didn't care for was the extra black vent above the(ram air vents?)like the first pic. and fixed in the second.
the one bitch I had with the styling they fixed right away.
I'm not sure if it was by model or all of them, but what I didn't care for was the extra black vent above the(ram air vents?)like the first pic. and fixed in the second.
I'm not exactly sure why but I find myself in 100% agreement with you.
Some may call me crazy (it happens all the time) but I was never a huge fan of the 916-998. Performance-wise they were great but I'm not a lover of SS swingarms. When the 1098 got released the price on the 999 dropped immediately (and they were stupidly expensive in Canada at the time) so I picked myself up an "S" model. Couldn't be happier with it.
Books have been written on the styling and design of the 999. I agree with someone else who posted that the 1098 should have been released first and then the 999. My feeling is that motorcyclists in general are a fairly conservative lot and don't take well to radical change. Like my wife, you have to ease them into new things.
"Exercise restraint and discipline, only responding to posts from legit customers and those with constructive positive intent, you will find that the handgrenades explode harmlessly. You have many satisfied customers who are happy to have the parts you've made. My suggestion to you is keep making good parts, keep getting more customers, take care of them and let them speak for you."
Not even close Larry. Guess again....after you have mapped out the ignition firing events.
I don't have to guess... I mapping out my next event for Honda's most
successful 360º 4 stroke big bangers... the RC30/ RC45... after all it was
their RVF 4 stroke works big bang cousins that born the NSR 500 Big Banger
and all of the consecutive copy cats...
Quote Max Oxley:
"Developments of the 91 NSR 500 focused around Doohan testing a number
of designs as HRC shifted their main push behind the new up and
comer... For some while Doohan had been asking engineers to replicate
the wide power band characteristic of the RVF750 4 stroke endurance
bike, which he and Gardner had used to lead the previous summer's
Suzuka 8 Hours. HRC answer was the 2 stroke equivalent of the the 4
stroke Big Bang."
"Consider and instant success by Gardner "Jesus, this is amazing" but
Doohan was a doubter, the 92 NSR droning big bang had a very
flat exhaust note which made it sound slow to riders. It was only
during HRC's final preseason phase that Doohan began to believe in the
Big Bang. He found little difference in lap times but the close
firing order was easier on tires and set up."
"Rainey and company were in for the shock as the season kicked off,
utilizing the Big Bangs ability to find traction where others could
not Doohan ran away with the first four races, winning by
anything up to 28 seconds wet or dry. The Big Bang proved such a
giant leap forward that rival factories Cagiva, Suzuki, Yamaha rushed
to build copies, having learned the NRS's secret by playing track side
audio recording against an oscilloscope."
now back on topic again. I think my favorite tre Niner was the all black evolusione(?) i think. and there is a nice bonus too if you crash and end up on your head it instantly becomes a Ducati 666
now back on topic again. I think my favorite tre Niner was the all black evolusione(?) i think. and there is a nice bonus too if you crash and end up on your head it instantly becomes a Ducati 666
Coincidentally, mine's black with the factory white number plates.
Fortunately, its never been the Belzebub Replica Edition.
I've always thought the 916 was incredibly beautiful/ I prefer its graphics to the later 996/998 versions, but I still find myself sometimes sitting on the garage with the 996 on the bench, and just enjoying the artwork. But it is looking dated now...after what, 17-18 years? Will ALWAYS be a classic, though.
I find the 999 is more "masculine" and agree with the folks who say that it looks best in race plastics, but I've always liked the **9 bikes, and never understood the derision Terblanche received for them.
The 1098 are for me pretty, but somehow don't stand out from the crowd as much, until you get closer up.
Imagine the 999 with the lighter weight of the 1098/1198 and the power....that would be a very, very cool bike, IMO.
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
Kawasaki KLR 650 '02
Kawasaki KLR650 '06 OB's Blog
Imagine the 999 with the lighter weight of the 1098/1198 and the power....that would be a very, very cool bike, IMO.
In my perfect world the next SportClassic would an 888 Evoluzione with the 1198 motor. Simply call it the Polen-R. A guy can dream, right?
On to other things, I agree the later 999 ('05-06) look better than the earlier versions.
-The extra hand vent on the early bikes is a bit over done. Newer front end looks cleaner.
-The black WSBK swingarm on the later bikes looks way better than the gray one on mine.
-The stock silver muffler cover of the early bikes looks much better in later black (or carbon with so many aftermarket).
-While not cosmetic, the more powerful deep sump engine is a plus as well.
Yellow is just not a great color for the 999, while black is sinister and bada**. I have seen some in different shades of silver to gunmetal, too bad Ducati didn't ever have them like that stock. I've never seen one in red with white frame and wheels but that would look cool too.
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