I went very close to buying a 999 but then my current SP2 popped up and got that instead.
Best Ducati to ride to date, well put together, the one thing that I really didn't like was the enormous heat coming from the underseat exhaust. Mind my test ride was in march, I was wearing heavy clothing and the bike has a Termignoni carbon exhaust which is supposed to gice off less heat than OE...
The only reason the 1098 is selling so well is because they dropped the price. If the 999 had not been so fncken expensive they would have sold plenty more.
As you are all saying the 999 is a better bike and will age very well. The 1098 is made cheaper and looks like every other bike ... but as the price was right it sold.
Pete
The funny thing about Ducati pricing is that they are closer to the accepted market value/price point today than in the past. I bought my 998 in 02 and got a screaming deal at 14,500 USD. Thinking back IIRC they listed at $17K.
Nine years later, today the new bike prices are nearly the same based on people paying similar or slightly higher numbers for the new units. The 999 was a departure that paralleled Japanese bikes with somewhat radical styling departures and the conventional 2 arm swinger. Today with it's seemingly 'bland' styling as compared to the wedgemobiles we see, it would fit into market acceptance very well. Although back then you could lump me into the omg is that bike fugly group.
The polarizing looks are not always a bad thing. Some people really like them (like me), while I accept that many do not. Terblanche had a nearly impossible job of following the 916. Functionally the bike is superior, in the inevitable comparisions of 2007 the 1098 struggled to match lap times with the last 999 despite having 20 extra horsepower.
I like all of the Ducati Superbikes for different reasons, and while the 999 is the least "pretty" of the bunch, owning one has been very enjoyable.
Ducati will NEVER be able to get away with making an uglly bike, even if it does well on track, their core customer base wants something that looks "cool" at Starbucks, and cruising past local high schools. No fault of Ducati, just what they've cultivated as a customer base here, just like Harley......
-Rocky-
PS. The other selling point is to waaaaay over price it so it's "exclusive"
__________________
ROCKYMT
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Let's not forget the obvious , in addition to a lower price , the 1098 was lighter , more powerful and faster than the tre9 . The latter two factors also helped sales .
The 1098 is lighter partly because it no longer has all the (unnecessary?) adjustment, etc. The 999 was clever because you can move the seat, and adjust the foot pegs, etc. ... this added weight but was an attempt to make a more comfortable Ducati.
And of course it's faster it has a 100cc bigger motor.
Other than price I think the real killer for the 999 was the attempt to make a Ducati superbike too compromising. When somebody wants to buy a Ducati superbike they want to suffer and feel they are getting the full racebike on the road trip/trick ... being able to adjust comfort related things neuters that somewhat.
If I won Lotto, and my wife allowed me to spend some of it, a 749s in red would be bought before I got home from work. Yes I admire a 848/1098 but I admire many bikes and cars but I really notice a 749/999.
Pete
__________________
'97 Suzuki GS500E
'90 Suzuki GN250 - Sold 57000 km's later. Cost less than 12c per km to run ...
Grumpy Kiwi.
Why fly when ya can make a lot of noise
Ducati will NEVER be able to get away with making an uglly bike, even if it does well on track, their core customer base wants something that looks "cool" at Starbucks, and cruising past local high schools. No fault of Ducati, just what they've cultivated as a customer base here, just like Harley......
-Rocky-
PS. The other selling point is to waaaaay over price it so it's "exclusive"
You should stop hanging out around those Starbucks and Schools...if that's where you see the majority of the Ducs. Around these parts, they're at the track, having fun...
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
Kawasaki KLR 650 '02
Kawasaki KLR650 '06 OB's Blog
Funny to hear all of this speedzilla praise today. When I had my '03, it was derided here as fugly.
Don't worry it still is "Fugly". People have just gotten used to it...
And just about any bike looks good in race trim. White plates do a world of good on just about anything rollin.
And why peple say it it looks Japanese is beyond me. Like thats an insult? When most of the bikes ridden are what? LOL JAPANESE!>!>!@>#>$?!
And didn't the Ducati's styling come from a Honda in the first place?
Whats going to kill Ducati is hesitation... the engineers should be hard at work
with a new V4 replacement to the old successful work horse...
Quote Dennis Noyes: To V or not to V
"This year the red Ducati is still awesome to ride but with the arrival of new
players with "Duc style" exhaust notes and power delivery the 1200cc
V-Twins dominance is not so clear anymore."
Whats going to kill Ducati is hesitation... the engineers should be hard at work
with a new V4 replacement to the old successful work horse...
Quote Dennis Noyes: To V or not to V
"This year the red Ducati is still awesome to ride but with the arrival of new
players with "Duc style" exhaust notes and power delivery the 1200cc
V-Twins dominance is not so clear anymore."
It will probably come, Larry, one day, but ya know....I've seen these same comments for maybe 4 years now.
And the big 1098R is still the top choice if I were to purchase a new bike. I really am not enamored with anything else. If and when they start lagging behind the performance of the others on the track (even without the current performance penalties applied to them), then I'd say they should dust off their Deci config if they want to remain competitive with the performance market. That point has not (yet) arrived.
In WLD SBK, one has to think that the tiny 50MM intake restrictions (compared to the STOCK 63.9MM TBs....a 39% intake reduction!!!) is good for at least 15 HP (likely more), PLUS with their 6KG weight penalty over the 4s, there is STILL a fair amount of leeway before their (relatively) low-RPM, 8 valve motors can no longer compete against the higher-revving, 16V motors. The FIm does not even have to change the existing rules to allow the Twins to compete....it's all already in place to try to ensure neither configuration has the overall advantage.
So don;t write them off just yet, in terms of being competitive. (unless we get another superman like Ben against them )
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
Kawasaki KLR 650 '02
Kawasaki KLR650 '06 OB's Blog
It will probably come, Larry, one day, but ya know....I've seen these same comments for maybe 4 years now.
And the big 1098R is still the top choice if I were to purchase a new bike. I really am not enamored with anything else. If and when they start lagging behind the performance of the others on the track (even without the current performance penalties applied to them), then I'd say they should dust off their Deci config if they want to remain competitive with the performance market. That point has not (yet) arrived.
In WLD SBK, one has to think that the tiny 50MM intake restrictions (compared to the STOCK 63.9MM TBs....a 39% intake reduction!!!) is good for at least 15 HP (likely more), PLUS with their 6KG weight penalty over the 4s, there is STILL a fair amount of leeway before their (relatively) low-RPM, 8 valve motors can no longer compete against the higher-revving, 16V motors. The FIm does not even have to change the existing rules to allow the Twins to compete....it's all already in place to try to ensure neither configuration has the overall advantage.
So don;t write them off just yet, in terms of being competitive. (unless we get another superman like Ben against them )
6kg is not that much really and 50mm TB was what the 51 had, why should they be allowed more? Just cusrious?
"Exercise restraint and discipline, only responding to posts from legit customers and those with constructive positive intent, you will find that the handgrenades explode harmlessly. You have many satisfied customers who are happy to have the parts you've made. My suggestion to you is keep making good parts, keep getting more customers, take care of them and let them speak for you."
6kg is not that much really and 50mm TB was what the 51 had, why should they be allowed more? Just cusrious?
Don't put words into my mouth....I never said they should be allowed more. (yet).
I said that the FIM already have a mechanism in place in the technical rules, to try to keep parity between the twins and the fours....which allows adjustment of the intake restrictors on the twins and the weight penalty on the twins, if they start to fall too far behind the more powerful fours.
It was all part of the clever (yes, clever) FIM plan to ensure that the twins 200cc displacement advantage vs their lower rev ceilings and much smaller valve seat length (and thus partial valve-opening flow characteristics, which impacts MEP and torque and thus power).....are configured in such a way as to NOT give any overall performance advantage to either the twins or the fours.
I'd say they've been EXTREMELY successful last season, in that their initial assumptions of the 200cc displacement advantage vs the intake restrictor and weight penalies and the restricted engine components on the twins....all effectively gelled to ensure some very competitive racing across such disparate types of machines.
It meant that the twins had a chance against the fours...but with effective penalties in place to ensure there was no clear dominance by one type over the other (the "Ben" factor excluded )...and furthermore, that as soon as any such dominance would be seen to exist, the rules provided a DYNAMIC change to the penalties on the twins to regain equivalence at the overall level.
Yes, some will argue that there should be no equivalence rules...and all manufacturers should just "have at it" with the "best they have"...and that is fine, if that is what you want...but it is NOT fine, if you actually WANT to see different types of engines competing with each other, and see your OWN street bike based race bike fighting for the win against other types of machines.....which is PRECISELY what world superbike is meant to be. It is NOT MotoGP, where there is no street bike basis and is rather for the realm of the full-on, prototype, racing machines.
If there were no "equivalence" rules, then the fours take it....absolutely no question. We all know this. Ducati knows this. Honda knows this. The FIM certainly knows this....thus the REASON for the equivalence rules.
So....getting back to Larry's point that the twins are quickly becoming extinct, I simply pointed out/reminded the old guy that the twins are still heavily restricted compared to the fours, within the current FIM rules...and that I believe that if they (the twins) start to become uncompetitive with their current penalties, the rules provide for larger intake restrictions and lower weight penalties to again restore the balance....so don't count the twins out just yet.
YMMV, as always.
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
Kawasaki KLR 650 '02
Kawasaki KLR650 '06 OB's Blog
Don't put words into my mouth....I never said they should be allowed more. (yet).
I said that the FIM already have a mechanism in place in the technical rules, to try to keep parity between the twins and the fours....which allows adjustment of the intake restrictors on the twins and the weight penalty on the twins, if they start to fall too far behind the more powerful fours.
It was all part of the clever (yes, clever) FIM plan to ensure that the twins 200cc displacement advantage vs their lower rev ceilings and much smaller valve seat length (and thus partial valve-opening flow characteristics, which impacts MEP and torque and thus power).....are configured in such a way as to NOT give any overall performance advantage to either the twins or the fours.
I'd say they've been EXTREMELY successful last season, in that their initial assumptions of the 200cc displacement advantage vs the intake restrictor and weight penalies and the restricted engine components on the twins....all effectively gelled to ensure some very competitive racing across such disparate types of machines.
It meant that the twins had a chance against the fours...but with effective penalties in place to ensure there was no clear dominance by one type over the other (the "Ben" factor excluded )...and furthermore, that as soon as any such dominance would be seen to exist, the rules provided a DYNAMIC change to the penalties on the twins to regain equivalence at the overall level.
Yes, some will argue that there should be no equivalence rules...and all manufacturers should just "have at it" with the "best they have"...and that is fine, if that is what you want...but it is NOT fine, if you actually WANT to see different types of engines competing with each other, and see your OWN street bike based race bike fighting for the win against other types of machines.....which is PRECISELY what world superbike is meant to be. It is NOT MotoGP, where there is no street bike basis and is rather for the realm of the full-on, prototype, racing machines.
If there were no "equivalence" rules, then the fours take it....absolutely no question. We all know this. Ducati knows this. Honda knows this. The FIM certainly knows this....thus the REASON for the equivalence rules.
So....getting back to Larry's point that the twins are quickly becoming extinct, I simply pointed out/reminded the old guy that the twins are still heavily restricted compared to the fours, within the current FIM rules...and that I believe that if they (the twins) start to become uncompetitive with their current penalties, the rules provide for larger intake restrictions and lower weight penalties to again restore the balance....so don't count the twins out just yet.
YMMV, as always.
but really don't you mean so ducati can continue to race the twin?
you are saying in theory others could use twins, V's and the like but let's be honest and unobjective for a second
why would other companies veer from the inlines they sell/race now in favor of making a say twin and then have to work around it being penalized from the get go to race? IMHO this whole theory you make clear bennies nobody but ducati, so it is not allowing others to make different configs as it is saving Ducati from going belly up or switching configs
"Exercise restraint and discipline, only responding to posts from legit customers and those with constructive positive intent, you will find that the handgrenades explode harmlessly. You have many satisfied customers who are happy to have the parts you've made. My suggestion to you is keep making good parts, keep getting more customers, take care of them and let them speak for you."
Baldy, it's not that I tend to gravitate toStarbucks or High School parlin lots (my parole agent says no more 14 year olds...DAMN! ) It's that I live in Poseur Central (well maybe 3dr place behind L.A. and South Beach) The S.F. Bay Area, and it KILLS me to see sooooo many douchebags on nice Ducs, MV's, Bimotas, you name it, with $3000. leathers, $2000 custom painted Arais, and 3" CHICKEN STRIPS!!!!! I know, it's their money, they can spend as they want, but every once in a while, when one of these fookin' power rangers pulls up to one of "our" spots in the hills, and starts talkin' like King Kenny, I really get the urge (instead of ignoring them as if they weren't even there which is my default response) to take 'em along for a little spin, just to see how far their ego and mouth will go writing that check, that their "mad skills" can't cash. Unfortunately in my teens, that's exactly what I did with a kid from our High School, we all rode off with him playing catch up, only to find out the next day he died trying to keep up. Anyway, what I REALLY wanted to say is, in talking to several Ducati dealers over the past year or so, Ducati is setting itself up for an epic fail. As Honda, Yamaha et-al have virtually stopped importing ANY new bikes this year, Ducati is still full steam ahead. That are actually INCREASING shipments, based on what the THINK will be demand for their product, partially based on the sales figures from 2008 (which was a record year for them) I'd hate to see any of the MFGRS. fail, but even the dealers are saying they aren't moving inventory, other "preimum" brands (Ape, BMW) are cutting into their "base" and things are getting scary. I can't see Ducati being able to cut much more off their MSRP than they already have (a huge factor in 1198 sales) and credit is only gonna get tighter. It will be a very interesting 24 months. People with hard cash are gonna see some awsome opportunities out there.
Semper Fi!
-Rocky-
__________________
ROCKYMT
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
but really don't you mean so ducati can continue to race the twin?
you are saying in theory others could use twins, V's and the like but let's be honest and unobjective for a second
why would other companies veer from the inlines they sell/race now in favor of making a say twin
1. Yes, OF COURSE that's what I mean. Why the surprise? I own a Ducati. It's a great street bike. I like to watch it competing. I'd also LOVE to see the KTM and the BMW HP compete, if they could, or even the Aprilia V2. Why the shock?
2.Who's not being honest and objective here? I NEVER said the others should "veer from the inlines to twins" Why should they? I don't get your question/statement. I think I'm being VERY clear.
3. Yes, WHY would they? Who is suggesting they do? They don't NEED to...they already have some VERY competitive platforms, making lots and LOTS of power - more than the Ducati can possibly make as a twin, even with 200cc more.
Do you not "get" that this is a streetbike series, intended to allow street bike manufacturers race their specific sporting bikes for their fans, and hoping to win more fans and sales? This is NOT the prototype full-on racing class for non street based bikes.
Is this so difficult to understand? You keep getting stuck on the 200cc thing. I don't understand WHY....do you not consider the MEP and RPM capability of the engine - which are JUST as important as displacement in the manufacturing of power? The fours have an inherent and undisputed advantage in terms of valve area, valave seat length (diameter of valves x number of valves), RPM capability, lower stresses, and all the other things that determine power and reliability (to finish a race).
Only an ignorant person looks at ONE single component of a multi-level component picture here. The FIM are not stupid (much as we'd like to think they are, sometimes) THEY understand that displacement is only ONE factor here....and that the twins NEED some leverage here to compete against their inherent disadvantages with valve area, flow combustion chamber size and flame propagation, RPM capability, etc.
There is NO QUESTION that fours are INHERENTLY more capable of making more power, with less stress. The twins (Ducati, right now)....are at an inherent disadvantage compared to the fours. This is a given. No-one is arguing this!!!! Understand this. This is why the FIm allows the twins an extra 200cc....(while adding a number of other dynamic restrictions based on race-by-race results, to ensure equity)
The trick, IF YOU WANT TO ALLOW MULTIPLE ENGINE TYPES TO COMPETE, is to strike a set of rules that allow these various types of street based motors to compete without INHERENT advantage or disadvantage.
If you don't understand the AIM of this class of racing, then we're wasting each other's time here. The current rules provide for NO advantage to either the fours or the twins (read them, if you don't understand them). Have you actually READ the rules? They're even translated into English for us...and quite simple to understand. Read them, if you intend to argue.
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
Kawasaki KLR 650 '02
Kawasaki KLR650 '06 OB's Blog
The S.F. Bay Area, and it KILLS me to see sooooo many douchebags on nice Ducs, MV's, Bimotas, you name it, with $3000. leathers, $2000 custom painted Arais, and 3" CHICKEN STRIPS!!!!!
-Rocky-
Well, I paid $7K for my used 996....so cheaper than any new Japanese 600. I ride the bike almost exclusively on the track, other than the very occasional Sunday ride.....as do many of the Duc riders I know. I don;t even KNOW of any Duc rider with $3K leathers (most of ours are scuffed and a little tatty), and I own a $100 KBC helmet - anything plastic, soft and forgiving for my head works for me.....and NONE of my friends have 3" tweety strips.
Here's one of my front tire, for reference, with the street wheels on.
What really gets me are...the chromed-out, blinged, slammed, Japanese bikes with purple neon lights.
So perhaps, it doesn't pay us to generalize, eh?
__________________ Old Baldy / WWBO #451
Ducati 996
Kawasaki KLR 650 '02
Kawasaki KLR650 '06 OB's Blog
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