Looking for some tire advice.
Have been using Michelin Pilot Power (not RACE) street tires for years on my track-only Ducati 748 and they have treated me well....until now! I now run them on my 999R that has 130 hp (up from 87 on the 748), I'm still running the 180/55 rear. But now with the increased corner speed and hp they are loosing grip in corners to the point that I landed on my head late in the day on my last track outing (NJMP) What I'd like to know is what would be recommended for the next logical step UP in rubber?
Please keep in mind that:
1. I'd rather not have to use tire warmers.
2. I buy a lot of tires during the year, so I'd like to keep the cost down!
BTW- I don't race. Trackdays only. I'm a FAST Intermidiate rider (NESBA, etc) or Slow Advanced rider (Tony's Trackdays, etc)
TIA
'Lidz
You're on Michelin's, go with Power Ones, not the cheapest but at least try a set out and see what you think about the cost vs grip vs longevity. I bet you'll be suprised at what you find. Besides, you'll have confidence in the tires, which helps out now and then. Oh and work on your throttle control.
(I can kid around because I just highsided my 996 (again) from poor throttle management.)
DIABLO SUPERCORSA SP (SP for Sport Production... this is not a DOT race tire)
The jewel of Pirelli World Supersport championship fully homologated for street usage
Peak performance on road driven by pure racing technology and materials
Approved for speed up to 320Km/h (198 mph)
Original equipment on prestigious bike models like 848 Ducati
What they deliver is the best of both worlds... the DOT race tire's accuracy
of line and confidence in grip... coupled with the Street tire's envelope that
has been stretched so that it reaches the operating temperature range
earlier... plus it operates over a wide temperate range plus unlimited heat
cycles...
I switched my DOT race tires for High Performance street tires
after reading Sport Riders shoot out where they sampled all the
different tire categories to test how they stack up... In summary
They gathered a lot of data during this test and learned a lot about each
tire and our own preferences for tires. Much of the objective data show
the more track-oriented tires to be superior when it comes to lap times
or speed,and certainly that is the case. However,on both street and
track that increasing performance comes with more of a requirement
from the rider. Setup is more important with the grippier tires, stability
and compliance suffer,and conditions have to be just right to access
that extra traction. Over 80 percent of our street test loop,the four
types of tires averaged within a couple mph of one another,a strong indication
that factors other than what tire you are on dictate your pace on the road.
Surprise No.1 for us was just how capable the sport-touring tires are,
especially on the street. If you're not looking for that last
10 percent of performance from your bike,sport-touring tires have
excellent traction and predictability and will provide thousands of
miles of use.
Surprise NO.2 was how good sport tires were on the track. Both
brands provided great,consistent performance,lapping an average of
just a half-second off the DOT race buns. They carded the best scores
on the street portion of the test and required little in the way of
set up to get comfortable with.
Surprise NO.3 was just how much the DOT race tires sacrificed on
the street compared with the sport and hybrid tires. Neither of our
riders felt comfortable on the majority of the test loop with the race
tires, and even though the tires have incredible grip levels and are amazingly
fun on a fast,smooth road,that performance is not worth the trade off
that must be made the rest of the time. At the race track the DOT race
tires are clearly a step above the street tires, and there is even
more of a performance gap than our lap times indicate-both our riders
felt they could go faster than they did with more set up time. Again,that is the
price that must be paid for great grip and steering from a race tire.
The final piece of the puzzle is this: To get the best performance,
you must be honest with yourself when it comes to choosing a tire.
They given you the answers. You just need to figure out what questions
to ask yourself.
SPORT-TOURING
DUNLOP D220ST AND MICHELIN PILOT ROAD
Rating Street: 78.7 Track: 75.5 Average lap time: 1:12.72
1. I'd rather not have to use tire warmers. -> Why????
2. I buy a lot of tires during the year, so I'd like to keep the cost down! -> if you want to keep costs down, buy tyre warmers!
What you describe happens a lot with the Pilot Powers at the track. They overheat and then suddenly lose grip which usually results in highsides and lowsides. Every DOT road tyre will be a bad compromise. Don´t fool yourself, they´re street tyres and NOT race tyres.
Buy tyre warmers and get yourself a set of proper rubber. No matter if you´re using Bridgestone BT002/003, Dunlop GP Slicks or treaded ones, Michelin slicks, Metzeler Racetek, Conti raceattack (the race tyre, not the street tyre!).
Because - and this is where it takes you to realize this - how much money did you save by using street tyres? I am sure leather repair is going to cost between 100-200$, a crash helmet is usually 300$, clip on 50$, foot peg 30-80$, water pump cover 50$... you know what I´m saying. It absolutely makes no sense to save 5$ using road tyres and then smashing the 999R into pieces, which is going to cost you a grand.
I was a Michelin guy for years (Pilot Power & the Pilot 2CT) but eventually made the switch to dedicated track tires.
I took my time deciding and ended up going with Bridgestone BT003 tires. At the time, they were the most econonmical and they were getting pretty rave reviews with respect to wear, grip and cost ( as mentioned).
I went with a soft front and a medium rear, and the set cost me $350. My sizes are 120/70 front and 190/55 rear.
The reason I switched was that after about 4-5 laps at a mid pack advanced pace, the Michelins would get greasy. They never felt loose to me, but they did move around. All in all, though, I was tempted to try something different and more sticky.
I've never had issues breaking the rear loose with the 'Stones so that's fine. But the most obvious difference to me was the front end feel and grip. With the Stones it was astounding. I felt like I could simply trail brake forever without penalty. This was in addition to the overall grip being marketdly improved with the BT003s v. the PP 2CTs.
All in all , I'd suggest the Bridgestones. I had to make NO changes in geometry going from Michelins to Bridgestones (so that was a bonus) and since I ride the front of the bike, the added front end feel was great to have .
I did end up bogarting my mechanic's tire warmers for a while and fell that it is definatly worth your while to go with them. It's just better all around. As soon as you roll in from a session, you scoop them on and when you're ready to go back out the tires are all nice an toasty. It's not only piece of mind, but it's also about increasing longevity; i.e., the more consistent the temp of the tire throughout the day, the fewer true "heat cycles" it'll experience.
Anyway, my vote is the BT003s. BUT, ALL the tires these days are soooooo good that for guys like you and I (slow to midpack advanced group fodder) we won't ever know the difference. So, get what you can afford. Althoughm, I'd be hard pressed to give up the front end fell that I"ve come to love with the BT003s.
What are your times at Loudon? One of the guys I race with was running Dragon Supercorsa Pros into the teens.
Youre going to want to find a set of warmers if youre moving up to race rubber. If you dont youre going to have to take it easy first couple of laps to avoid eating dirt or ripping the tire apart.
You could also make friends with somone that races and buy their take offs. Depending on who you buy frm and what your pace is they can be a very good deal and last a while.
You might also look into Diablo Corsa 3s. They are the Dual compund front, single compound front Hybrid street/track tire from Pirelli. They are extremely capable tires. They are even the Spec Race Tire for Europoean Superstock (One of the series that runs w/ the Euro rounds of World SBK).
What are your times at Loudon? One of the guys I race with was running Dragon Supercorsa Pros into the teens.
Youre going to want to find a set of warmers if youre moving up to race rubber. If you dont youre going to have to take it easy first couple of laps to avoid eating dirt or ripping the tire apart.
You could also make friends with somone that races and buy their take offs. Depending on who you buy frm and what your pace is they can be a very good deal and last a while.
Best I've run at Loudon is 1:21 on my 748...haven't gotten lap times this year yet with the bigger bike, but I feel it might be a couple secs quicker, just because of the hp down the straight (although, I've only run the messed up chicanes in 1 and 2, so that doesn't count)
My friends race up there so I guess I could see about his take off's (Dunlop)
Tire warmer recomendations???
Ben and Hurbert...
Great replies and excellent advice. Yeah, I think it's time to make the leap
This bikes too much $$$ to be tossing down the track
About rear tire size...the 999R comes with the 5.5" rim and 190 rear tire, do you guys recommend staying with that or going to the 180 rear? Why?
Best place to buy Bridgestones?
Tire warmers? Brands?
TIA
'Lidz
Ben and Hurbert...
Great replies and excellent advice. Yeah, I think it's time to make the leap
This bikes too much $$$ to be tossing down the track
About rear tire size...the 999R comes with the 5.5" rim and 190 rear tire, do you guys recommend staying with that or going to the 180 rear? Why?
Best place to buy Bridgestones?
Tire warmers? Brands?
TIA
'Lidz
Id go with a 190/55. Isnt Street and Comp at all of Tonys days? Can buy bridgestones from them. As for warmers I have a set of woodcrafts and they have worked perfectly.
Do you have tire services at the track with the companies you ride with? If you do, then I would simply go to them for some DOT Race rubber. Sitting here and debating brands is pointless because everyone is going to have their own opinions and experiences, all of which are valid. I ride with Pacific Track Time out here on the west coast, and I can get a set of Dunlop Sportmax GP's (DOT Race) for around $350 a set. The RC51 is pretty good on tires, and you'll get a bunch of riding out of them. If you're riding less than a dozen times a year, you'll likely only need one set.
As for tire warmers, I've just got myself into a set and they're really nice to have because you don't have to worry about warming them up the first lap of every session. However, they are absolutely NOT mandatory, especially in warmer weather where the tires don't cool down as much beween sessions. They are just fine on their own.
The other thing to note is that typically the only difference between a true DOT Race tire and a slick from the same company is the grooves. At least with the Dunlops, I am told that the rubber compound is the same and the carcass is the same; the slicks atend to last longer though simply because of the lack of grooves.
Whatever way you go, just get off the street tires. In my opinion, if you're serious about track riding street rubber is garbage. It sucks that you found out the hard way, but a good set of race rubber will not only give you better outright traction, but more importantly they give you more progressive loss of traction. I have huge respect for guys that can spin the rear on street tires at the track because I find that they break away very quickly. Thats a different topic though.
Basically anything that is around 200$ upwards should work. Hubert or the other stateside guys might give better recommendations due to the difference in brands there is. I keep hearing chicken hawks are good!?
I have ttsl, they work fine. My friend has motogp warmers with adj heat from 60 to 80*C. They work fine. Then we have Capit and KLS, they work fine. I guess you get the idea. If you can borrow a set I would do that. Try rubber and warmers yourself for first hand experience, then judge if it's worth it. I guess you'll never look back to street tyres.
Thanks guys,'
Bike's almost back together. And I have a friend checking on Pirelli Race tires and Chickenhawk warmers. He uses this combo on his 1098R and he's FAST!!!
This season I'm running 16.5's, so I've not used the 2009 tires like the Power One. But I have used; The Bridgestone 003Pro (awesome tire), The Michelin Pilot Power and PPR's (not so hot) Pirelli Supercorsa Pro (decent tire) and my favorite Dunlop 211GP
I've done tests with the Pirelli supercorsa pro, back to back with 211's and its been night and day. Not only is the side grip on the 211's better (sticks better then glue) but, they have a much better way of communicating to the rider they're letting loose. The Bridgestone 003's have a very unusual profile and it takes sometime to get use to it coming off the Pirelli's. I've only done limited amounts of laps with the 003Pro's, but from my experience in using the 211's, they were very similar in grip potential, just not in the feedback territory.
Ben's right and wrong about the Michelin's. From my experience, they're very temperamental with tire pressures and you have to use MORE pressure, to keep the friction down (less heat). There is a fine balancing act with pressures on the PPR's, but its very similar to the Dunlop KR106/108's I currently race with. I've done race pace times on the Michelin PPR's on my stock 848 and liked the tires, but saw the issues very clearly as I rode.
For me, a good tire will let you know what's going on, way before it "lets loose" and thats the most important part. The second most important part is side grip followed closely by handling characteristics. The Dunlop's don't have the best initial lean-in, but they do have excellent mid-corner handling (something Ducati's like). The Pirelli's have better initial lean-in, but suffer in the feedback category. They also have tire wear issues, far beyond that of their counterparts. A rear Medium Supercorsa Pro vs Medium Dunlop 211, the Dunlop will last me 25 laps easily, the Supercorsa is gone in 12.
Next season, I'll have a race bike with 17" wheels on it and be able to do some more tire testing. I can't wait to test the new Bridgestone's and of course the Supercorsa pro's. But from my experience (which I will admit is limited) I've not found a better tire then the Dunlop 211. Even my KR series slicks, arn't much better then the 211.
Also, tire warmers are important to have. Not only do they keep the heat cycles to a minimum, but they also limit your warmup time. I usually lie down a "quick" first lap and then get on it from there on out. Keeping the tire wear down saves money and helps keep your confidence level up.
Dunlop sells the 211's for $399 a set (retail). But if you can get to know your tire provider, they'll knock it down a bit. I've been to NHIS a few times, but sadly don't have any seat time. Needless to say, that track is owned by Dunlop during the races... RTS (race tire services) is the East Coast provider and their number is on Dunlop's web site: Welcome to Dunlop Racing Tires
Finally: The tires I've listed above are all awesome tires. There really isn't a bad DOT race tire on the market today. Some have different characteristics that riders like, so they stick with those tires. Other guys go wherever the cheapest tire is because they can ride on anything. Just because a friend of yours who is faster, can use XYZ tire, doesn't mean you can. I've seen guys on Pilot Power's do amazing things, yet I don't have the confidence on them. You've gotta try the different tires yourself. Get the big picture and determine what tire works for you. Don't get take-off's, just buy a nice new set of all the tires listed above and over the course of the summer, test all of them until you've found the perfect tire.
For a 5.5 rear, I'd stick with a 180/55. You really do need a 6" rear to get the 190/55 to sit right and be right.
As for warmers, I used a set of hand-me-down Chicken Hawks and they seemed just fine. The tires were warm, the warmers spooned on easily and nothing burned down.
I'd just get a set of T2 warmers and call it a day - T2's are trackday warrior brand made by a track junkie like us. So, they're cheap and easy to use.
As for where to get Stones, I'd check w/ Stickboy at stickboyracing.com (IIRC). He's a great guy and he's really good with customer service ( at least when I dealt with him). He'll square you away with compound choice, pressures, etc.
I've heard that the Dunlop NTECs are the shizzle but I think those tires are for guys chasing championships, not weekend warriors like myself (i.e., I usually think I'm the slowest guy out there, since I usually am). Also, not getting the uber tires saves you money.
Honestly, the 003 are on another planet compared to the Pilot Powers and 2CTs that I was running. The most dramatic difference I noticed was the front end feel (as I mentioned). It truly is suprising. If, however, you have a prefered trackside vendor that you'd rather work with, that's understandable. But, I think the 003s certainly are worth checking out. Also, I went with the Stones over the Pirellis because at the time, Pirelli wasn't paying out contingency to their racers and I didn't really want to support a program that was undercutting its grassroots supporters. But that's just a sentimental personal opinion. YMMV
Good luck, let us all know what you decide on and what you think down the road.
Hubert
Just a little something on 180 and 190 rear tyres.
The Bridgestone has quite a bit of larger profile I think. I have ridden the 180 and 190 BS slick back to back and couldn´t feel a difference. My mate tried the same and he hated the 190. I had it on a 916 SPS and he tried it on his 999. A few months later I did the same on my 999R but I didn´t experience the 190 to be feeling awkward. I´d say give it a go. The new Bridgestone we get here is a 190/650(!)/17. Watch your ride height and swingarm clearance.
OK. I'll check into Stones, I have a friend checking into Pirellis. Another friend uses the T2 warmers, so I can talk to him about that.
Still not sure about 180 vs 190???
Thanks all....keep the info coming.
Anyone using Dunlops?
Yeah, the GP Racer Slick is ok but far away from the NTEC (D211 is the supersport tyre and KR108 is the SBK tyre) items. The GP Racer is available in 3 compounds, which I´d say is totally sufficient for an average group rider.
I´d start with used slicks. Many people just use them for half a day. Buy them off them, save yourself a lot of money while gathering experience. Brand doesn´t matter so much. As Tyler said:
Quote:
The tires I've listed above are all awesome tires. There really isn't a bad DOT race tire on the market today. Some have different characteristics that riders like, so they stick with those tires. Other guys go wherever the cheapest tire is because they can ride on anything. Just because a friend of yours who is faster, can use XYZ tire, doesn't mean you can. I've seen guys on Pilot Power's do amazing things, yet I don't have the confidence on them. You've gotta try the different tires yourself. Get the big picture and determine what tire works for you
Ben, I doubt the Dunlop GP Racer Slick is available in the U.S. yet.
Also, this is a lot of expensive, high level preparation for a trackday. Tire warmers and slicks? I suppose none of you have ever ridden your bike to the track, taken off the license, taped the lights and rode.
Tire advice??
What I'd like to know is what would be recommended for the next logical step UP in rubber? 
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