Is TC ruining racing?

[duckdawg]

Originally Posted by bsess

I don't mind TC in production class racing because there should be some viable venues for the manufacturers to develop meaningful technology but in the premier class (MotoGP) it should be done away with entirely.

They were looking to slow the bikes down and the 800cc rule had the opposite of the intended effect. The best way to slow the bikes down (and also bring back more of an emphasis on rider skill) is to increase the engine capacity and horsepower of the bikes and eliminate traction control. Trap speed will be higher but corner speeds (especially with a one tire rule) will go down considerably.

Exactly, I'm guessing none of these pukes (speedzilla) ever rode on ice? There's nothing like overkill and no traction to bring out the "pucker" factor. Besides, why limit anything in the ultimate form of a competiton?...

[Furious Styles]

XBFO
You keep referring to TC as though its a peice of equipment... but nothing could be further from the truth.
Its not a master cylinder or brake pads, rotors, or shocks.
The electronic shocks should be gotten rid of also (another thread)... Electronic aids in general should be gone.
NO TO ELECTRONIC AIDS:
AIR SHIFTERS
ELECTRONIC SHIFTS
TRACTION CONTROL
SHOCKS OF ANYKIND
I think we all want to know who is the best racer, not who has the best electronics.
I don't watch racing for, maranelli, bosch, or any other electric company.
The fundamental thing about any racing is:
Acceleration
Braking
Turning
If you compromise any of those things with electronic aids you compromise the human element. Which in the end is bad for racing and race purity.

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by Furious Styles

XBFO
You keep referring to TC as though its a peice of equipment... but nothing could be further from the truth.
Its not a master cylinder or brake pads, rotors, or shocks.
The electronic shocks should be gotten rid of also (another thread)... Electronic aids in general should be gone.
NO TO ELECTRONIC AIDS:
AIR SHIFTERS
ELECTRONIC SHIFTS
TRACTION CONTROL
SHOCKS OF ANYKIND
I think we all want to know who is the best racer, not who has the best electronics.
I don't watch racing for, maranelli, bosch, or any other electric company.
The fundamental thing about any racing is:
Acceleration
Braking
Turning
If you compromise any of those things with electronic aids you compromise the human element. Which in the end is bad for racing and race purity.

+1 exactly man

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by bsess

where are race track accidents/crashes more likely to occur, in corners or straights?

While on the gas, from mid to exit?
Hey Ive been wrong before but Im having a hard time believing the argument some of you are making.

IF TC MAKES RIDING EASIER OR THE LESS TALENTED MORE ON PAR WITH THE ROSSI'S, WHY DONT WE HAVE A TIGHTER RACE FOR ALL THREE STEPS ON THE PODIUM EVERY ROUND?

If someone can answer that question, with logic, you might make a believer out of me too.

[drsus]

well....electronics again!

Mechanical plays its usual part, but electronics will loose you races faster than mechanicals in todays motoGP....excluding tires of course.

I say get rid of all that crap and let them ride the bikes again..... the fact that riders like Rossi, Hayden, Colin, Melandri want to get rid of it says a lot.

[Furious Styles]

Originally Posted by XFBO

While on the gas, from mid to exit?
Hey Ive been wrong before but Im having a hard time believing the argument some of you are making.

IF TC MAKES RIDING EASIER OR THE LESS TALENTED MORE ON PAR WITH THE ROSSI'S, WHY DONT WE HAVE A TIGHTER RACE FOR ALL THREE STEPS ON THE PODIUM EVERY ROUND?

If someone can answer that question, with logic, you might make a believer out of me too.

The simple and most direct answer is this. No one races a spec TC system. Each system is set to the directives that work for each rider and his make of bike. If it was as direct and simple as you make it seem, the racing might be tighter.
What about Mick Doohan? Doohan was a better racer, with more skill than most in a number of areas.You could say No TC made the racing ( at least for first place) boring. TC May have made racing closer.
Rossi may have been that much better than the rest... and TC brought the rest of the field back to him... its possible. But we won't even know how good these guys are at the top level because of TC. They are now implementing TC in 250's, (funny enough) on Honda's that haven't been developed since 04'.
This is the real question. If TC is only an aide and doesn't make racing easier then why have it on the bikes at all?
Remember that if you say it extends tire life, thats just another way of making racing easier. If a rider doesn't have to manage tire life then that is one less skill that is used during race events therefore making the load lighter of each and every racer.

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by XFBO

IF TC MAKES RIDING EASIER OR THE LESS TALENTED MORE ON PAR WITH THE ROSSI'S, WHY DONT WE HAVE A TIGHTER RACE FOR ALL THREE STEPS ON THE PODIUM EVERY ROUND?

Because technically speaking some engine architects work the TC less
than others... so despite all the PC comments to the contrary not all
engines are equal... the Vs continue to show an advantage...

Quote Randy Mamola:

"adopting a spec ECU-something that Dorna CEO Carmelo Ezpeleta has said
MotoGP might consider. I don't think it would work, though, because there
are different engine configurations- V4, straight-4, pneumatic valves,
desmo valves, etc.-and the ECU wouldn't work the same with each one. (FI
has a much more consistent engine platform, with 2.4-liter V8s across the
board."

[mikstr]

"so despite all the PC comments to the contrary not all
engines are equal... the Vs continue to show an advantage..."

and the I4's continue to rack up championships....

OR

as they battle for second place behind the I4's...

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by mikstr

"so despite all the PC comments to the contrary not all
engines are equal... the Vs continue to show an advantage..."

and the I4's continue to rack up championships....

OR

as they battle for second place behind the I4's...

The Vs have 5 MotoGp Championships under 3 different riders whereas the
inline has 3 MotoGp Championships under one rider... advantage Vs...

[sqd8r]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

The Vs have 5 MotoGp Championships under 3 different riders whereas the
inline has 3 MotoGp Championships under one rider... advantage Vs...

To be clear, with the demise of the V5 the advantage clearly swung to the I4. 3 of the last 4 titles are on the I4. 3 of those V5 titles were won by the same rider.

4 V5
3 I4
1 V4

... here it comes...

[mikstr]

"The Vs have 5 MotoGp Championships under 3 different riders whereas the
inline has 3 MotoGp Championships under one rider... advantage Vs..."

and Singles won quite a few too back in the old days but how far back do we go?

Yep, it' a hard pill to swallow, 3 of the last 4 championships have been on I4's, including the most recent one. Any reasonable person would see a trend here...

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by mikstr

"The Vs have 5 MotoGp Championships under 3 different riders whereas the
inline has 3 MotoGp Championships under one rider... advantage Vs..."

and Singles won quite a few too back in the old days but how far back do we go?

Yep, it' a hard pill to swallow, 3 of the last 4 championships have been on I4's, including the most recent one. Any reasonable person would see a trend here...

let's look at WSBK titles and how many inlines won that fukka since say 2000 wait, let's go back to 1989 instead

18 years and 2 i think? go them inlines

[Furious Styles]

This is NOT a discussion on Engine configs.. its about Traction Control.
With that said... is it really an Inline four if it uses a V4 firing order?

Traction control probably makes less tire freindly motors easier to ride, which would extend tire life and give the riders more confidence which also would show in overall race times.

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by mikstr

Any reasonable person would see a trend here...

I see a trend and his name is Rossi...

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by Furious Styles

With that said... is it really an Inline four if it uses a V4 firing order?

Yes... even with a superior V4 firing order you still have the same I4 with it's

A)extra drag producing journals
B)longer and heavier crank
C)widest engine possible...

[mikstr]

"Yes... even with a superior V4 firing order you still have the same I4 with it's

A)extra drag producing journals
B)longer and heavier crank
C)widest engine possible..."

You forgot to add:
1) one less cam chain or set of cam gears hence less weight and parasitic drag
2) shorter length which permits a stacked transmission, longer swingarm and more optimal positioning in the chassis for better handling (remember, they are motorcycles, not just motors)
3) the rads are now wider than the engines, making point number 3 totally irrelevant

[Turbo329]

Regarding traction control here is how I feel.

If one manufacturer has a superior method of traction control, then obviously the racing will suffer.

On the other hand, In racing, I'm all for spec Traction Control to keep it even. It's up to the riders and the development of the machines as far as set up and stuff. But in a spec traction control scenario, trickle down will suffer as far as road bikes goes. So it's really a matter of what's more important.

Personally, I'm all for safer motorcycling. Traction Control development is great for road riders. But until the other manufacturers catch up to the current industry leaders in this area. Suzuki/Ducati, your racing campaign will ultimately suffer unless you have Val Rossi riding for you.

[Turbo329]

V motors are always slower in a straight line than inlines of similar capacity.
Inlines have better corner entries

V motors get better drive outs
V motors tend to have better mid corner manners

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by Turbo329

V motors are always slower in a straight line than inlines of similar capacity.
Inlines have better corner entries

V motors get better drive outs
V motors tend to have better mid corner manners

In WSBK V2s have proven to be slower than I4s with similar capacity...
whereas MotoGp V4s have proven to be faster than I4s...

Only Yamaha's I4 with a backward spinining crank has proven to sport better
corner entries...

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by mikstr

You forgot to add:
1) one less cam chain or set of cam gears hence less weight and parasitic drag
2) shorter length which permits a stacked transmission, longer s