New R1 uses M1 firing intervals.

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by Old Baldy

(which is one area where the 90 degree V4 DOES shine).

True... and the 90º V4 also out shines the I4 in 7 other important ways:

1) Cube-like crankcase are inherently more rigid than the longer,
beam-like case of an I4 engine.

2) Short V4 crankshaft weights less than an I4...

3)Short V4 crankshaft has less distance to travel and thus takes
physical effort to change direction than I4...

4) 90º V4 has perfect primary balance, a great improvement over
the buzzy, second-order vibration of an I4...

5) A narrow V4 affords up to a 35% reduction in aerodynamic drag over
the wide I4...

6) A V4 has less internal crank bearing friction and able to deliver
more rear wheel HP...

7) A V4 sports superior power delivery and able to achieve greater
tire grip...

[mikstr]

Awesome explanation Baldy. It is nice to see the underlying principles governing engine power output so well explained. Now if we could only get a certain member to actually read it and attempt to understand...

Speaking of which: "I think you'll be dumbfounded how the same old combustion chamber with the same old cam timing same old BMEP and tuning can feel so much more linear through out the powerband..." Impossible to do since the new R1 engine is not just an old engine with a re-phased crank; it has a new more oversquare design and all of the important dimensions and factors that REALLY affect the power output and distribution (as listed by Baldy) are different.

[mikstr]

Here we go again...

"True... and the 90º V4 also out shines the I4 in 7 other important ways:

1) Cube-like crankcase are inherently more rigid than the longer,
beam-like case of an I4 engine. TRUE

2) Short V4 crankshaft weights less than an I4... TRUE

3)Short V4 crankshaft has less distance to travel and thus takes
physical effort to change direction than I4... TRUE

4) 90º V4 has perfect primary balance, a great improvement over
the buzzy, second-order vibration of an I4... FALSE, depends on factors such as crank timing used in either case

5) A narrow V4 affords up to a 35% reduction in aerodynamic drag over
the wide I4... FALSE, as many have demonstrated time and time again, the engine is no longer the widest part of a motorcycle, it is now the radiator so your point is irrelevant

6) A V4 has less internal crank bearing friction and able to deliver
more rear wheel HP... TRUE, but the V4 has more friction at camshaft level, as well as added mechanical drag from the added cam activation mechanism

7) A V4 sports superior power delivery and able to achieve greater
tire grip... FALSE. If this were true, why then did Ducati utilise a "twin-pulse" firing sequence on the D16RR? Also, what about a 180 or 360 degree crank in a V4? Too many variables to be considered to make such a blanket statement


Now, on the other hand:
1) I4 is shorter allowing better positioning in the chassis for better handling; remember, we don't ride engines we ride motorcycles

2) I4's are cheaper to produce (an important factor for those of us living in the real world)

3) alternative crank timing makes it possible for the I4 to emulate any inherent tractability advantage that is arbitrarily had by a V engine

[Old Baldy]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

I think it's a big mistake to stated in public that

Larry, THAT is funny!

Understand, that some of us have been thinking the same thing about YOUR willingness to continue to state your assumptions as fact, when they have absolutely no relationship to engineering truth.

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by mikstr

Impossible to do since the new R1 engine is not just an old engine with a re-phased crank; it has a new more oversquare design and all of the important dimensions and factors that REALLY affect the power output and distribution (as listed by Baldy) are different.

You say impossible but...

Take an 2008 R1... add the 2009 "new more oversquare design and all of the
important dimensions and factors that REALLY affect the power output and
distribution" and you'll still have an screamer with the old "cammy hit'
delivery...

Take an 2008 R1... add the 2009 rephase crank etc and you'll have a droner
with the new more linear delivery...

[mikstr]

"Take an 2008 R1... add the 2009 rephase crank etc and you'll have a droner with the new more linear delivery..."



Go read an engineering book and find out what REALLY affects an engine's power output and distribution. Alternatively, re-read Baldy's earlier thread...

[Old Baldy]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

Take an 2008 R1 and add the 2009 rephase crank etc and you'll have a droner
with the new more linear delivery...

Now we know you've really lost the plot here, Larry. C'mon, you're a clever fellow with your metalworking. Build a new crank for the 2008 R1 and replicate the cam profiles and install a Motec with the same spark, fuel and environmental trims to replicate the 08 ECU with the new firing pattern, and show us how to do the impossible!

You could be the next Furusawa, with your very own new theory on how torque and horsepower is made!

[mikstr]

"Build a new crank for the 2008 R1 and replicate the cam profiles and install a Motec with the same spark, fuel and environmental trims to replicate the 08 ECU with the new firing pattern, and show us how to do the impossible!"

I vote for that!

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by mikstr

Here we go again...

"True... and the 90º V4 also out shines the I4 in 7 other important ways:

1) Cube-like crankcase are inherently more rigid than the longer,
beam-like case of an I4 engine. TRUE

2) Short V4 crankshaft weights less than an I4... TRUE

3)Short V4 crankshaft has less distance to travel and thus takes
physical effort to change direction than I4... TRUE

4) 90º V4 has perfect primary balance, a great improvement over
the buzzy, second-order vibration of an I4... FALSE, depends on factors such as crank timing used in either case

5) A narrow V4 affords up to a 35% reduction in aerodynamic drag over
the wide I4... FALSE, as many have demonstrated time and time again, the engine is no longer the widest part of a motorcycle, it is now the radiator so your point is irrelevant

6) A V4 has less internal crank bearing friction and able to deliver
more rear wheel HP... TRUE, but the V4 has more friction at camshaft level, as well as added mechanical drag from the added cam activation mechanism

7) A V4 sports superior power delivery and able to achieve greater
tire grip... FALSE. If this were true, why then did Ducati utilise a "twin-pulse" firing sequence on the D16RR? Also, what about a 180 or 360 degree crank in a V4? Too many variables to be considered to make such a blanket statement

Wow... you agree with 4 out of 7 advantages of the V4... OK that's
progress mikstr... standby while I see if you will agree with me on the
other 3...

[mikstr]

will never happen. You see, unlike you Larry, I try to be objective. You should try sometime...

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by Old Baldy

Build a new crank for the 2008 R1 a

Mercy Baldy... make sure that new crank ain't the old 180º or you're going to
end up with a screamer with the same old cammy hit delivery...

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by mikstr

will never happen. You see, unlike you Larry, I try to be objective. You should try sometime...

I know you try to be Objective... just like people claim to be opened minded...
only if we count the hole in their heads...

[Old Baldy]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

Mercy Baldy... make sure that new crank ain't the old 180º or you're going to
end up with a screamer with the same old cammy hit delivery...

Nope, we end up with same same powerband, same torque and same horsepower. Not even Furusawa or Yamaha claim any miraculous power or motor torque advantage. Only you, Larry.

[sqd8r]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

The worlds number one rider is what it takes win a championship on an
Inline... other champions win on the V motors...

Yup although to be completely accurate we like to call them L motors. Ducati has how many world titles...

Does anyone not see the early signs of dementia in Larry?

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by Old Baldy

Nope, we end up with same same powerband, same torque and same horsepower. Not even Furusawa or Yamaha claim any miraculous power or motor torque advantage. Only you, Larry.

I'm saving all our quotes for when the magazines test the new "virtual V4"
against the old cammy hit I4 so we can see if I'm the only one saying that the
powerband is different with the new crank phasing...

[Old Baldy]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

I'm saving all our quotes for when the magazines test the new "virtual V4"
against the old cammy hit I4 so we can see if I'm the only one saying that the
powerband is different with the new crank phasing...

haha. How exactly are you going to show that, Larry....without the tuning changes. The differences you may see in powerband are not related to the crank remember. Oh, no....you don't remember.

[drsus]

how does yamaha go from finally giving Japanese bikes soul in design in 1999 to this 2009 thing?
the front end, aside from being one of the ugliest in HISTORY, it looks unfinished... or like one of those cheapo Pep Boys ish aftermarket crappy lights mods the stunters use on their bike after the dump it 5 minutes after purchase.
The underseat exhaust?! really? you can almost hear the Yammy ask "do these pipes make my ass look fat?" yes..yes it does.

[Old Baldy]

Larry, there are some relatively decent references on basic engine fundamentals available on the web, if you're interested.

I did a quick search, and found some here for ya, to help understand the concepts.

Engine Technology Contents / Advanced Engine Technology

Volumetric Efficiency (and the REAL factor: MASS AIRFLOW), by EPI Inc.
Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP): The Performance Yardstick

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by Old Baldy

haha. How exactly are you going to show that, Larry....without the tuning changes. The differences you may see in powerband are not related to the crank remember. Oh, no....you don't remember.

Standby Baldy for Yamaha's new crank to be directly related to the
differences felt in the powerband... like we have been tuning I4s for years but
they felt quite like this before...