New R1 uses M1 firing intervals.

[mikstr]

"Burgess and Rossi solved Yamaha's problem by what they learned at HRC... "

There is no doubt that they all learn from one another (they beauty of competition) and that Burgess and Rossi took some things they learned at Honda over to Yamaha. However, they had a clean slate and chose NOT to adopt the V engine configuration. They then went on to win three (and almost a fourth) MotoGP title in five years, lending support to their wisdom of sticking with the I4 configuration as the best overall race bike engine configuration. The V4 may be a more potent power building combination on a dyno but in the real world, housed in a motorcycle chassis, the I4 has proven itself superior for its superior handling capabilities. Remember, there are way more corners on any given racetrack than long straights, making handling thtqa much more important than simply outright horsepower. Maybe Honda should look at shelving that archaic and ineffective V design if they want to get back into the winner's circle...

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by mikstr

"Burgess and Rossi solved Yamaha's problem by what they learned at HRC... "

There is no doubt that they all learn from one another (they beauty of competition) and that Burgess and Rossi took some things they learned at Honda over to Yamaha. However, they had a clean slate and chose NOT to adopt the V engine configuration. They then went on to win three (and almost a fourth) MotoGP title in five years, lending support to their wisdom of sticking with the I4 configuration as the best overall race bike engine configuration. The V4 may be a more potent power building combination on a dyno but in the real world, housed in a motorcycle chassis, the I4 has proven itself superior for its superior handling capabilities. Remember, there are way more corners on any given racetrack than long straights, making handling thtqa much more important than simply outright horsepower. Maybe Honda should look at shelving that archaic and ineffective V design if they want to get back into the winner's circle...

The real wisdom of sticking with the short I4 is that it has long ties to Yamaha marketing...

Quote MotoGp Tech:

"Yamaha decided that the very compact configuration of the in-line four
would fit best. There was no second bank of cylinders to squeeze in at
the back and, although the engine was wide, it was wide where there
was room for it to be wide - in front of the rider's legs. And, with
one cam drive, one set of cams and one block, it was relatively light.
Marketing considerations were also taken into account - most of
Yamaha's sport bikes were across-the frame fours."

[mikstr]

Yamaha wants to win. If the V4 was so clearly superior as you claim, they (indeed everyone) would have abandoned the I4 long ago. Instead, they have perfected it by ironing out one of the disadvantages traced to the use of a 180 degree crank. What they have now is the best of both worlds, and the championships bear it out. A bitter pill to swallow I know, but time moves on and it is no longer 1994. Welcome to the new I4, the best all round motorcycle powerplant, as chosen by Yamaha (need I remind you again how many titles they have won of late), Kawasaki, and BMW (likely THE most advanced powerplant manufacturer in the world). Sure, some have elected to stick it out with the V, but they are engaged in a race for best of the rest. Like you, they are likely just too stubborn to face up to reality. Pride can be a blinding force...

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by mikstr

Yamaha wants to win. If the V4 was so clearly superior as you claim, they (indeed everyone) would have abandoned the I4 long ago.

As long as Yamaha has Rossi they will never abandon the old inferior I4... his
superior skill level makes any bike look better than it is...

[mikstr]

"his
superior skill level makes any bike look better than it is..."

you mean just as it did with the Honda V engined RC211? How do you explain BMW's decision to choose the I4 then? They have no Rossi and are quite possibly the most advanced four-stroke engine builders on the planet and yet they choose the inline over the Vee? Could it be that you're wrong? Again, we are not 1994 anymore....

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by mikstr

you mean just as it did with the Honda V engined RC211?

Honda has confirmed that the basic specs of the RC211V was based on the
successful RC45... so with all that 4 stroke experience their MotoGp entree
begin light years ahead of everyone else... it was such a winning package
that the press cited it and not Rossi as the reason for his 3 straight
championships... Rossi decided to leave Honda to prove it was more him
than bike... Honda let him go because they wanted to prove it was more
bike than rider... looks like both have proved their points... Rossi won 2
straight on the work in progress Yamaha and Nicky won one on the tired
and true Honda...

Originally Posted by mikstr

How do you explain BMW's decision to choose the I4 then? .

DC (Designers Choice)... when BMW says that the I4 is all they know how
to build in a motorcycle then OK... I believe them... but if MV failed to win a
WSBK title with an I4 what makes BMW think they can succeed???

[sqd8r]

[quote=Busy Little Shop;510750]As long as Yamaha has Rossi they will never abandon the old inferior I4... his
superior skill level makes any bike look better than it is...[/quote]

Hm, guess that applies to 3 of those 4 V titles then doesn't it...your words not mine.

[sqd8r]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

DC (Designers Choice)... when BMW says that the I4 is all they know how
to build in a motorcycle then OK... I believe them... but if MV failed to win a
WSBK title with an I4 what makes BMW think they can succeed???

That's total BS and you know it Larry. I'm honestly not sure if you are inane or if you are just taking the piss. You know exactly why BMW chose the I4 platform and you know BMW has been making V motors for years.

MV v. BMW. Man you are really insulting the collective knowledge here if you think that weak arguement is going to stand. What does it take to win a WSC title? Money. That's why MV failed where Honda and Suzuki have succeeded with the I4 platform BTW - stings to here Honda nad I4 title doesn't it. BMW certainly has the where-with-all to succeed in WSC if they are in F1.

New 2009 WSB contender... guess who?

Originally Posted by General Director of BMW Motorrad, Mr Hendrik von Kuenheim
I stated before that we are actively looking for new options, for profitable growth and for the planned increase in volume. Precisely that is why we have decided, among other things, to take on the competition in the Supersports segment on both the road and the race track.
We naturally realise that we are taking on a great challenge. Particularly the Japanese are some 20 years ahead of us in this class and have lots of experience. But even so, the spirit of this competition alone encourages us in our efforts. From the start we wish to be on par with our well-established competitors also in the Supersports segment.
Our development team is highly motivated to achieve our goals. And I can tell you today that the status we have achieved so far is very promising.
We are confident that we will be able to start the Superbike World Championship next year with a convincing all-round package, and that our series motorcycle will be just as convincing. In both terms of both its technology and price, our Supersports will be absolutely competitive.
Dear Motorcycle friends, what motivates us to move into this segment in particular?
First:
The very fascination of this motorcycle with its racing DNA expands and upgrades the brand image of BMW Motorrad by offering an additional, sporting and emotional element winning over new customers for the brand.
The Superbike World Championship is becoming increasingly popular among motorcycle riders, since here, unlike the MotoGP, they are able to watch and admire their motorcycles in a direct comparison with competitors.
And they can enjoy this thrill all around the world! This year the Superbike World Championship is being held on four continents and in 13 countries.
Second:
For the first time we are demonstrating the innovative power of BMW Motorrad also in the segment of the most dynamic, top-performance onroad motorcycles, since our Supersports motorcycle is an all-BMW development from the ground up and will be built at our plant in Berlin.


Third:
We are expanding our product portfolio also with a view to worldwide growth.
Today sales in the 1,000-cc class amount to some 100,000 units worldwide. The vast majority of these motorcycles goes to the USA and Europe. And the four large Japanese manufacturers account for about 85 per cent of the market.
BMW Motorrad is looking at a long-term involvement in this segment. Clearly, that means we must speak the language of the segment and follow the usual market standards. And indeed – we are confident that we will set new benchmarks in this scene, winning over an appropriate market share.
This, Ladies and Gentlemen, takes me on to the motorcycle as such.
It is our objective to offer the customer a high-performance motorcycle with absolutely outstanding qualities and features on both the road and race track in terms of rideability, performance, and ergonomics.
Since we are still in the middle of the development process, it would be too soon to mention any specific technical data. But you naturally know the usual level of performance our competitors have to offer. So with this in mind, I leave it to you today to speculate on what the specifications might be.
Our Supersports is based on a highly proven fundamental concept. Before choosing this concept, we naturally analysed the market and the appropriate technologies with utmost care and precision. And we will use the technical parameters required to develop our own solutions.
In the early project phase we checked out various engine concepts. And as you know, we then decided in favour of a four-cylinder, with the straight-four offering the best qualities to meet the power, performance, weight, and package requirements to be fulfilled. In typical BMW style, the engine will of course offer a number of special features, especially on the cylinder head.
For package reasons we have decided against the BMW Duo-Lever on the suspension. Taking up more space, this kind of front-wheel geometry would have presented disadvantages with the very compact structure of BMW’s new Superbike.
But you can be sure that the innovations we are introducing are absolutely convincing. One example is the special traction control you will find on the new machine. Again, however, we cannot give you any further information today.
As you may expect of BMW Motorrad, the design of our BMW Supersports will be absolutely unique and very different. While it will of course reflect the usual design language in the segment, it will at the same time offer a strong and powerful message from the BMW brand.
Now let me briefly give you the status of our entry into the Superbike World Championship:
Today I can confirm that our preparations are proceeding according to plan in every respect: In compliance with the rules of the Series, the new motorcycle will be available to customers in 2009 and we will build 1,000 production models by the end of next year.
We are implementing our racing activities in close cooperation with our partner Alpha-Racing, a specialist very experienced in motorsport. Located near Munich, Alpha-Racing have already started work in a special production hall specifically for this purpose.
The process of building up the team is proceeding at full swing and we have already filled the key positions.
The team is a combination of specialists from BMW and members of the Alpha-Technik racing crew, as well as further specialists from professional Superbike racing.
Choosing the development and test riders for our racing machine, we are currently operating in a revolving system to gain as much experience as possible. The selection of test riders ranges from experienced riders still active today all the way to young “top guns”.
In the upcoming weeks and months we will systematically start production of the racing machine in its individual power and performance stages, testing the new model as we go along.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
We naturally realise that the established teams have many years of experience. But we wish to take up this challenge in particular and have put together a highly motivated team precisely for this purpose, a team which will prove the performance of our new motorcycle in professional racing.
Naturally, we will have to go through a certain process of learning – which is precisely why we have set ourselves realistic targets for the time being: In our first year in the Superbike World Championship we seek to bring home several places in the Top 10 and to consistently close the gap to the top teams. In year 2 we plan to catch up with the top teams and to win our first places on the podium. And our medium-term objective, obviously, is to win the World Championship!
Ladies and Gentlemen,
So much on this project, the current status of the project and our preparations for entering the World Superbike Championship next year.
You have been speculating a lot on the designation of our new model. So let us put an end to this speculation today.
BMW Motorrad’s first Supersports will be the “S 1000 RR”.
In choosing the name and designation of BMW’s new Supersports, we are consistently following our nomenclature at BMW Motorrad. In this name, the “S“ stands for Supersports, marking a new class of motorcycles from BMW. The “1000” designates the size of the engine, and the “RR” naturally stands for the model itself.


Dear Motorcycle Friends,
Many motorcycle magazines have published photos of a racing prototype which we have tested on several racing tracks. Today we would like to show you this racing prototype, offering you an initial impression of the package and the technology.
But when you see the motorcycle in a minute, please note that neither the design nor the impression of quality are the same as on the production model following at a later point.

[simonkobe]

next year will be fuuking amazing!!
with only 1 (maybe!) old fashioned V4 engined bike racing

i predict the yamaha will be the best bike,but who knows with their new riders on board
its like 1988 all over again
i was 14 during that season,but i watched all race religiously,and it was the greatest season in motorsports imo(first WSBK year)

[mikstr]

"In the early project phase we checked out various engine concepts. And as you know, we then decided in favour of a four-cylinder, with the straight-four offering the best qualities to meet the power, performance, weight, and package requirements to be fulfilled."

sorry, that post is irrelevant for it is too recent. Don't you have something dating back to 1994 or so?

[simonkobe]

hows this
scroll down to the rvf750

RVF/VFR History

1994 RVF750 (RC45)

<B>

Overview:</B> The long awaited RC30 replacement, the RC45, unchanged from the preproduction form that people had seen at the 1993 Suzuka 8 hour race, hits the showrooms and lays a big egg in magazine tests. With a $27K (USD) price tag and performance only slightly better than a CBR600F2/3, people are wondering what Honda is thinking. Honda's Propaganda said that the RC45's engine is capable of "Over 150 HP, in HRC race kited form". They fail to mention that it barely makes 100hp out of the box. The U.S. D.O.T./EPA legal "Black box" seems to be the main problem. Snip a wire and gain 8-10 HP is the rule of the day. It will take a lot of time and money to run with the other Big dogs in both AMA and WSB competition. They seem to be getting better in AMA but are still struggling in WSB (though Arron Slight has been doing amazing things on his Castrol sponsored RC45). IMHO: Honda should have just hung lights on the 1992 RVF and called it a day.

Wayne Gardner talked highly of the 1992 bike and said the '93 Factory RVF's and the RC45 went in the wrong direction as far as engine placement in the frame and it's effect on turning/handling. Even though Honda claims the engine sits 10mm further forward in the frame compared to the RC30, both Factory team racers Arron Slight and Doug Polen, talked about chasing the front end as it pushes and has lack of feedback in the turns. In the August 1995 Issue of Sport Rider Magazine Lance Holst mentions more than a couple of times the unnerving lack of front-end feedback both on Arron Slight's Factory RVF and similar characteristics with the RC45 Street bike.

Note: The markings on the bike are RVF not VFR. I asked a Castrol Honda/HRC guy on Arron Slights team what's up with this. He said that the RC45 (street bike) & current HRC/RVF ("Factory" race bike) are the same machine to comply with FIM- WSB & AMA Superbike rules. Like in AMA motocross, there are no true "Works Bikes" anymore, you have to have production based frames and engines. The RC45 was designed by HRC off the RVF lineage instead of the VFR family

[sqd8r]

Originally Posted by simonkobe

hows this
scroll down to the rvf750

RVF/VFR History

1994 RVF750 (RC45)

<B>

Overview:</B> The long awaited RC30 replacement, the RC45, unchanged from the preproduction form that people had seen at the 1993 Suzuka 8 hour race, hits the showrooms and lays a big egg in magazine tests. With a $27K (USD) price tag and performance only slightly better than a CBR600F2/3, people are wondering what Honda is thinking. Honda's Propaganda said that the RC45's engine is capable of "Over 150 HP, in HRC race kited form". They fail to mention that it barely makes 100hp out of the box. The U.S. D.O.T./EPA legal "Black box" seems to be the main problem. Snip a wire and gain 8-10 HP is the rule of the day. It will take a lot of time and money to run with the other Big dogs in both AMA and WSB competition. They seem to be getting better in AMA but are still struggling in WSB (though Arron Slight has been doing amazing things on his Castrol sponsored RC45). IMHO: Honda should have just hung lights on the 1992 RVF and called it a day.

Wayne Gardner talked highly of the 1992 bike and said the '93 Factory RVF's and the RC45 went in the wrong direction as far as engine placement in the frame and it's effect on turning/handling. Even though Honda claims the engine sits 10mm further forward in the frame compared to the RC30, both Factory team racers Arron Slight and Doug Polen, talked about chasing the front end as it pushes and has lack of feedback in the turns. In the August 1995 Issue of Sport Rider Magazine Lance Holst mentions more than a couple of times the unnerving lack of front-end feedback both on Arron Slight's Factory RVF and similar characteristics with the RC45 Street bike.

Note: The markings on the bike are RVF not VFR. I asked a Castrol Honda/HRC guy on Arron Slights team what's up with this. He said that the RC45 (street bike) & current HRC/RVF ("Factory" race bike) are the same machine to comply with FIM- WSB & AMA Superbike rules. Like in AMA motocross, there are no true "Works Bikes" anymore, you have to have production based frames and engines. The RC45 was designed by HRC off the RVF lineage instead of the VFR family

Oh no you didn't...

[mikstr]

What? some naughty things about Mr RC45? Some nerve there mister....

[Cafe_Racer]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

The real wisdom of sticking with the short I4 is that it has long ties to Yamaha marketing...

Quote MotoGp Tech:

"Yamaha decided that the very compact configuration of the in-line four
would fit best. There was no second bank of cylinders to squeeze in at
the back and, although the engine was wide, it was wide where there
was room for it to be wide - in front of the rider's legs. And, with
one cam drive, one set of cams and one block, it was relatively light.
Marketing considerations were also taken into account - most of
Yamaha's sport bikes were across-the frame fours."

Here's why you're nuts, Larry. You read, "marekting considerations were ALSO taken into account" (emphasis mine) at the end of a paragraph extolling other advantages of the configuration and you hear, "it was mostly a marketing decision".

At this point, no one should continute to try to have any discussion with you about this subject.

[Busy Little Shop]

BMW is right about one thing so far...

"Naturally, we will have to go through a certain process of learning"


First thing they will learn is that the old cammy hit I4 is dead and buried...
they will scramble to copy Yamaha's MotoGp inspired "vitural V4"... if that
happens then it begs the question... why didn't they build a real MotoGp
inspired V4 from the git go???

[mikstr]

"why didn't they build a real MotoGp inspired V4 from the git go"

because they want to win, pretty obvious isn't it? Why else do you go racing? (unless you're Honda or one of the Mission Impossible teams running Vees) The V4 is a has-been design. Time to quit living in the past and embrace the newly evolved I4, the best of all worlds

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by simonkobe

hows this
scroll down to the rvf750

Mercy Simon I don't mind history but don't you know there are a few in
here that object reading about the "old 94 stuff"??? here try this modern
stuff...

Quote Kevin Cameron 2007
"The new Honda RC212V is also a V-Four. As many have noted (including
Jeremy Burgess) the original RC211V V-Five was just a developed V-Four
RC45 Superbike engine with an added cylinder, so here we are, back
again. Final versions of the RC45 had crank end-feeding oiling.
Because this system doesn't have to fight centrifugal force to get oil
to the crank pins, it works well with minimal oil pressure. Another
late 45 feature was crankcase evacuation combined with low-pressure,
low-friction oil scraper rings on the pistons-saving several HP."

MCN 2007



Performance Bike 06



Bike 06