Problem for Honda's MotoGP Engine?

[duckdawg]

no, again you are confused,as I would rather a meal than just a snack...

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by 247

Like 99.9% of all knowledgeable MotoGP fans I would say "you're (sic) memory" is the one that "needs some work".

No doubt that Casey had a fantastic year in 2007 with 10 wins.

But to declare that that makes him "a better rider" than a guy who has...
* 62 career wins...
* with 11 wins/year on three different occasions and...
* an AVERAGE of 7 wins per year since 2000...

Is just stupid.

No doubt that Valentino had a fantastic year in 2001 but to declare that makes him a better rider than 5 time world champion Mick Doohan is just stupid...

[ApparitionAGO]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

No doubt that Valentino had a fantastic year in 2001 but to declare that makes him a better rider than 5 time world champion Mick Doohan is just stupid...

How about saying that his 7 world championships make him a better rider than Mick Doohan? Is that stupid? C'mon. There are only two or three candidates for GOAT: Sheene, Agostini, and Rossi. That's it. And as stellar as Sheene was, the list should probably only include the last two. Based on wins, championships, winning percentage, etc. nobody else even comes close. Not to mention winning on different machinery against different challengers. Hrm. What if Rossi wins it all this year? I wonder if people will at last concede just how good he is. Fact is, most people that knock him can't remember further into the past than yesterday, can't remember the many incredible performances he has made (Philip Island when he checked out; South Africa racing on the Yamaha for the first time, Donnington in the rain, Mugello many times) and just how crap his luck has been (how many tire failures in the last two years? 6? 7? 8? More than the rest of the field combined) lately.

[bsess]

Originally Posted by 247

No doubt that Casey had a fantastic year in 2007 with 10 wins.

In 2007, Stoner was the best rider. The Ducatis have always made a ton of power but in the 800cc era, it is looking more and more like Stoner is the only one who knows how to ride the thing. The tires argument would seem to carry less weight too. Last year we saw Hondas raced by very good riders on both tire brands with neither demonstrating a marked advantage over the other.

As of right now, the Yamaha seems to have become as user friendly as the Honda as MotoGP newbies have been flat out flying from the get go. The Ducati, however, seems to be another story. Stoner remains among the fastest, if not the fastest, on race tires while the rest of the Ducati boys are still so far behind, they're in a different time zone. I think it was Toseland who thankfully commented that Stoner is the only one of the Ducati riders who seems to be able to get the bike to turn.

There was a considerable amount of speculation last year that Capirossi was in steep decline as a racer which was the most common excuse as to why he couldn't keep up with Casey on what many of these same people insisted was the most vastly superior bike on the MotoGP grid. Others talked about tires and Ducati's superior traction control. Well so far, a proven fast guy like Melandri (and an occasionally very fast guy like Elias) are hopelessly lost and the allegedly washed up Capirossi finished the Jerez test faster in the dry and the wet than both of them as well as every other Ducati rider not born in Australia. Loris was also faster (than his young teammate Vermeulen during FP1 (dry) QP (damp) and FP4 (dry). I hope Melandri and Elias find their way but I won't be the least bit surprised if they finish this season even further behind Stoner in points than Loris did last year.

Its so very early in Stoner's career and history is still being written. I suspect that as time goes on, Stoner will receive a greater share of the credit for his 2007 title than has been given him thus far. If he cleans up this year as convincingly as he did last season (and the other Ducati riders are nowhere near him in points) he will have begun building a credible case for being considered as the best rider in the world. And if Rossi can't beat him in 2009 after getting his very own Ducati, history will once again be rewritten.

[Mashuri]

Originally Posted by ApparitionAGO

How about saying that his 7 world championships make him a better rider than Mick Doohan? Is that stupid? C'mon. There are only two or three candidates for GOAT: Sheene, Agostini, and Rossi. That's it. And as stellar as Sheene was, the list should probably only include the last two. Based on wins, championships, winning percentage, etc. nobody else even comes close. Not to mention winning on different machinery against different challengers. Hrm. What if Rossi wins it all this year? I wonder if people will at last concede just how good he is. Fact is, most people that knock him can't remember further into the past than yesterday, can't remember the many incredible performances he has made (Philip Island when he checked out; South Africa racing on the Yamaha for the first time, Donnington in the rain, Mugello many times) and just how crap his luck has been (how many tire failures in the last two years? 6? 7? 8? More than the rest of the field combined) lately.

Valentino would have been eaten up and spit out by the less tame 500's, Doohan, Lawson, Rainey and Schwantz if he were racing in the late 80's and early 90's. The first three listed above are, IMHO, the only candidates for GOAT. Remember, stats without context are meaningless.

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by Mashuri

Valentino would have been eaten up and spit out by the less tame 500's, Doohan, Lawson, Rainey and Schwantz if he were racing in the late 80's and early 90's. The first three listed above are, IMHO, the only candidates for GOAT. Remember, stats without context are meaningless.

i call bullshat. rossi can ride anything, he has demonstrated that time and time again

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by bsess

In 2007, Stoner was the best rider. The Ducatis have always made a ton of power but in the 800cc era, it is looking more and more like Stoner is the only one who knows how to ride the thing. The tires argument would seem to carry less weight too. Last year we saw Hondas raced by very good riders on both tire brands with neither demonstrating a marked advantage over the other.

As of right now, the Yamaha seems to have become as user friendly as the Honda as MotoGP newbies have been flat out flying from the get go. The Ducati, however, seems to be another story. Stoner remains among the fastest, if not the fastest, on race tires while the rest of the Ducati boys are still so far behind, they're in a different time zone. I think it was Toseland who thankfully commented that Stoner is the only one of the Ducati riders who seems to be able to get the bike to turn.

There was a considerable amount of speculation last year that Capirossi was in steep decline as a racer which was the most common excuse as to why he couldn't keep up with Casey on what many of these same people insisted was the most vastly superior bike on the MotoGP grid. Others talked about tires and Ducati's superior traction control. Well so far, a proven fast guy like Melandri (and an occasionally very fast guy like Elias) are hopelessly lost and the allegedly washed up Capirossi finished the Jerez test faster in the dry and the wet than both of them as well as every other Ducati rider not born in Australia. Loris was also faster (than his young teammate Vermeulen during FP1 (dry) QP (damp) and FP4 (dry). I hope Melandri and Elias find their way but I won't be the least bit surprised if they finish this season even further behind Stoner in points than Loris did last year.

Its so very early in Stoner's career and history is still being written. I suspect that as time goes on, Stoner will receive a greater share of the credit for his 2007 title than has been given him thus far. If he cleans up this year as convincingly as he did last season (and the other Ducati riders are nowhere near him in points) he will have begun building a credible case for being considered as the best rider in the world. And if Rossi can't beat him in 2009 after getting his very own Ducati, history will once again be rewritten.

duud, you are such a ducati/stoner humper it is fogging your glasses there BS

he is the only one who knows how to ride this thing? do you hear yourself B4 you write??/ he is not translating a language nobody else can't can't

[tmoneyr007]

You're crazy to think that Rossi couldn't have rode any bike in any time period.

[duckdawg]

phuckin a, Rossi would have been eaten alive by real men on real two strokes...

[bsess]

Originally Posted by ApparitionAGO

How about saying that his 7 world championships make him a better rider than Mick Doohan? Is that stupid? C'mon. There are only two or three candidates for GOAT: Sheene, Agostini, and Rossi. That's it. And as stellar as Sheene was, the list should probably only include the last two. Based on wins, championships, winning percentage, etc. nobody else even comes close. Not to mention winning on different machinery against different challengers. Hrm. What if Rossi wins it all this year? I wonder if people will at last concede just how good he is. Fact is, most people that knock him can't remember further into the past than yesterday, can't remember the many incredible performances he has made (Philip Island when he checked out; South Africa racing on the Yamaha for the first time, Donnington in the rain, Mugello many times) and just how crap his luck has been (how many tire failures in the last two years? 6? 7? 8? More than the rest of the field combined) lately.

While Barry Sheene was certainly one of the greats, I really can't see a plausible case for calling him one of the GOAT. Maybe you can help me with that. Agostini certainly deserves to be there as does Rossi.

[ApparitionAGO]

Originally Posted by bsess

While Barry Sheene was certainly one of the greats, I really can't see a plausible case for calling him one of the GOAT. Maybe you can help me with that. Agostini certainly deserves to be there as does Rossi.

Well, I am nowhere near as familiar with his career as the other two, but as a point of reference, Rossi himself calls Sheene one of the greatest ever, and he is a personal hero to Rossi. So I guess he can't suck too bad.

BTW, none of this is to take away from Casey. I can't say I like him as a racer or a personality as much as Rossi, but he clearly was pretty special last year, and shows signs of being special again this year. But he needs another 5 or 6 world championships before his name will be writ as large as some others.

But if one is going to start jawing about the greatest, and historical significance, and who is the better rider, one better remember their history. And there are a few here that have a tough time thinking back very far at all. Or who just conveniently forget things (as I said, more tire failures than the rest of the field combined) out of adoration for one rider or another, and that aint right.

[ApparitionAGO]

Originally Posted by bsess

While Barry Sheene was certainly one of the greats, I really can't see a plausible case for calling him one of the GOAT. Maybe you can help me with that. Agostini certainly deserves to be there as does Rossi.

And just for grins, a quick summary is here: Barry Sheene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

23 GP victories, 2 world championships. As I said, if it wasn't for Rossi's admiration, he wouldn't be on the list of candidates (at least not any more than Doohan, Rainey, etc.)

[ApparitionAGO]

Originally Posted by Mashuri

Valentino would have been eaten up and spit out by the less tame 500's, Doohan, Lawson, Rainey and Schwantz if he were racing in the late 80's and early 90's. The first three listed above are, IMHO, the only candidates for GOAT. Remember, stats without context are meaningless.

He won the 2001 World Championship on a 500cc bike. Again, not saying those other guys aren't great racers, the best of their time even, but they don't make it to the same level as Rossi. Not statistically, and not in other ways such as the variety of bikes, manufacturers, etc.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by 247

The difference between Rossi's excuses and Hayden's are that Rossi's are glaringly obvious and real and Hayden's are nebulous and unverifiable.

That's the best quote ever.

[247]

Truce? This is getting a little weird.

Originally Posted by duckdawg

no, again you are confused,as I would rather a meal than just a snack...

[247]

If stats without context are meaningless, of what value is opinion with no supporting evidence?

To say that Rossi "would have been eaten up and spit out" by the "less tame" 500s (screamers on leaded fuel) is silly or naive.

The guy has won on 125s, 250s, 500s, 990s and 800s, why would he be thrown for a loop by a harder hitting 500?

FWIW- Doohan had 54 wins between 1990 and 1998, Rossi had 62 wins between 2000 and 2008. If Doohan gets GOAT consideration Rossi should surely be there too.

Originally Posted by Mashuri

Valentino would have been eaten up and spit out by the less tame 500's, Doohan, Lawson, Rainey and Schwantz if he were racing in the late 80's and early 90's. The first three listed above are, IMHO, the only candidates for GOAT. Remember, stats without context are meaningless.

[bsess]

Originally Posted by mrgrn

he is the only one who knows how to ride this thing? do you hear yourself B4 you write??

As I don't talk to myself when writing, no, I don't hear myself before I write anything. I do try to take a moment to think a little before writing which is something you should really consider trying sometime at least once in your life.

Capirossi managed only 1 win and 4 total podiums last year compared to 10 wins and 14 total podiums for Stoner. The total difference in points was 201. Stoner himself attributed Capirossi's struggles last year with his inability to adapt his style to the new bike.

Originally Posted by mrgrn

he is not translating a language nobody else can't can't

I certainly don't don't have a translation for what you're trying to say say here. The plain fact (in english) is that thus far, no one has yet shown they can come anywhere close to matching Stoner's pace on the 800cc Ducati. No one. Not Capirossi. Not Barros. Not Hoffman. Not Melandri. Not Guintoli. Not Chaz Davies. Not Canepa. Not Guareschi. Not Elias. No one. Not yet. It may eventually happen. But it hasn't happened. Not yet. If we could use crayons here, I'd draw you a picture as well as a special, (just for you) frame by frame illustration of a MotoGP puppet show that might make this easier for you to understand.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by 247

If stats without context are meaningless, of what value is opinion with no supporting evidence?

To say that Rossi "would have been eaten up and spit out" by the "less tame" 500s (screamers on leaded fuel) is silly or naive.

The guy has won on 125s, 250s, 500s, 990s and 800s, why would he be thrown for a loop by a harder hitting 500?

FWIW- Doohan had 54 wins between 1990 and 1998, Rossi had 62 wins between 2000 and 2008. If Doohan gets GOAT consideration Rossi should surely be there too.

Jeff, iirc you amongst others have made statements along the lines of, "oh man Nicky, Casey, [insert any current rider but Rossi]....couldnt hang with the Dr. on a 2smoker today"........blahblahblah. That's cool and ok right?

But it seems like the same crew has a problem with ppl making a similiar remark but placing Rossi at the negative end when the older/harder to ride 2smokers are brought up.........why is that?