COMMIEFORNIA extorts some cash from Power Commander

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by 1996900sp

No Inspection in CA either. No one ever looks at your bike except maybe a cop if you get pulled over.

True... some CHP even look while trying out the saddle...

"What do ya say, test hop for a get out jail pass?"

[cutmaster]

I live in Kalifontucky and I'm a motorcycle addict. Terrible about Dynojet and the PC fine...WTF!! I've got an appointment to get a custom map made this Friday...wonder if next they will go after the individual Dynojet centers that flog your bike...that's just got to be so illeagal also...duh? I like the roads for bikes out here but the govt. sucks. I believe our legislature also passed a micro-stamping legislation for hand gun ammo. Any handgun that doesn't micro-stamp the cases as they are shot will now be illegal in Cali...that is really going to help decrease crimes committed with firearms. I just don't get it.

[cutter]

California is always been about having the right ideas with the wrong methods, but what can you expect from those stupid liberals

[JeffKoch]

What a pack of morons, it's kinda sad how far this forum has degraded over the past 8 year or so. Have at.

[wdavis009]

Originally Posted by XFBO

We'll have to agree to disagree, you seem stuck on the defense of pleading 'ignorance' on behalf of the dealers/installers/owners......there's no way a sticker/label is all they need for a defense.

BTW- My analogy IS really closer than yours. If you go buy a high performance exhaust system for your vette that bypasses the oem cats altogether you cant tell me that a warning/sticker/decal would be the difference between the installer/you OR the exhaust manufacturer from getting @ssraped by CARB. Like I said earlier IGNORANCE of the law doesnt exclude you from punishment when breaking the law....atleast in NJ it doesnt.

You missed my point. You originally compared it to an exhaust manufacturer or car manufacturer being held responsible if "you" removed the catalytic converter, which would be illogical as they have no control over what someone does to a vehicle after it is purchased and therefore are not responsible, just as Suzuki, Kawasak, Yamaha, etc. have no control over what Dynojet, dealers or owners do to a bike after it is purchase. Hence, CARB did not hold the motorcycle manufacturers responsible (which your analogy claims they would). I never claimed ignorance of the law is a sufficient excuse (even children know ignorance of the law is not an excuse). Instead, I claimed CARB would have a harder time going after dealers, etc. if Dynojet led them to believe the product was street legal (by not clearly indicating that it was not, marketing it for street use, etc). In other words, CARB went after the root of the problem versus the symptom. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

As for your example above, many exhaust manufacturers sell systems that bypass the catalytic converter and legally sell them everyday, even in California. They can do this because they clearly indicate the systems are illegal for street use and are designed solely for off-road/closed-course competition. Hence, if you or a dealer install them on a street vehicle you and the dealer will be held accountable, not the exhaust manufacturer or the car manufacturer. The Dynojet case is different because Dynojet did not do the above, i.e., they knowingling sold the units for street use when they knew the units were not legal for street use. That is neglience at best. The difference, and the reason your analogy was inaccurate, is quite clear to me.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by wdavis009

The Dynojet case is different because Dynojet did not do the above, i.e., they knowingling sold the units for street use when they knew the units were not legal for street use.

And you might be missing my point, if it's true that the ONLY reason why DJ got penalized 1 MILLION dollars is for a stinking disclaimer then Ca has bigger issues with their current laws and government offices (CARB) than most ppl think.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by kdogg78

I live in Phoenix and see this everyday.. why the f%&k do i have to jump through the hoops to keep my vehicles smog leagal while these folks roll right through with smoking and severly unsafe vehicles. These trucks are complete piles of shit that are overlaoded and not anywhere near safe enough or fast enough for our freeways..

WTF is going on here i cant be the only one that sees this?

We will be exactly like the UK here in another 20 years.. no guns and heavily regulated and (more) heavily taxed.. I think its too late for this country .. Austria anyone?

The people who let Mexican trucks into the U.S. care about one thing above all else, money. Anything that helps the economy (and puts more money into their pockets) is a good thing in their eyes. These are the same people who want snowmobiles in national parks, new roads in wilderness areas, no limits on logging, reduced protection for endangered species, etc. They don't give a damn about how much smoke comes out of Mexican trucks or if they cause a few more accidents. It's all about the economy, the world economy. Now you have a feel for how third world countries feel about globalization.

On the PC:
I have one on my bike. I also altered the exhaust and more. I broke the law. If I get caught I know I'll pay the piper. I can't say I like it but at least I'm big enough to accept it and wise enough to understand it.

Would ya'll rather go back to the days of unmitigated smog? Maybe you should visit Mexico City to see what "your way" leads to. There is a very good reason for today's smog laws. Like your bike doesn't make enough power already...give me a break. Dynojet blew it and they don't have a leg to stand on, that's why they paid.

[wdavis009]

Originally Posted by XFBO

And you might be missing my point, if it's true that the ONLY reason why DJ got penalized 1 MILLION dollars is for a stinking disclaimer then Ca has bigger issues with their current laws and government offices (CARB) than most ppl think.

They were penalized for willfully selling something they shouldn't have sold. The lack of the label/disclaimer is the evidence it was willful.

[Sasquatch]

Originally Posted by XFBO

then they should be going after the installers and/or owners

They are-big time. Many shops that used to install pipes, jet kits etc won't touch them now. If caught, the fines would put a small shop out of business. It's not worth the risk.

I don't know this for a fact, but I've been told that HD's Screaming Eagle stuff isn't available around here anymore either. What's the first thing a new HD owner does to his bike? He puts heads, cams, pipes etc on it to help it get out of it's own way. It's all illegal and CARB is cracking down.

It's only a matter of time before they start impounding bikes with illegal modifications just as they are doing with the so called street racers (import cars with fart cans etc).

Mark my words, the writing is on the wall and it's perfectly clear. Motorcyclists are going to take it in the shorts around here pretty soon. We'll have to have smog checks for our bikes and every illegal mod will be flagged and we'll be forced to return our bikes to stock.

My 4x4 has a few aftermarket parts on it, all with EO numbers issued by CARB. Every 2 years when I have to get it smogged, I go through a freakin' nightmare having to come up with copies of the EO numbers and documentation to prove that everything is legal-even though I have all of the EO numbers on a tag mounted under the hood. My truck has been 'meatballed' and I can only go to test only stations now.

The same thing will happen to bikes around here soon enough. The rest of the country eventually follows the standards set in California. Save your stock stuff when you buy a new bike. You might need it.

Sure, it sucks. But you can't beat the roads, the landscape, the diversity or the weirdos.

[GAMBLER]

Vehicle Emissions Climate Heats Up - MotorcycleUSA.com#

Vehicle Emissions Climate Heats Up
1/9/2008
By Bart Madson

What do the Supreme Court, California and the EPA have to do with motorcycles? Well, decisions by all three could change the way vehicle emissions are regulated.

The motorcycle industry is still in the process of transitioning through the two-tiered round of increased EPA standards that began with the 2006 model year. We did our best to outline the changes last year in our Motorcycle Emissions Regs Examined article, in which we describe not just the new EPA standards, but the differences between California and the rest of the country.

The Golden State has played by a different set of rules for a long time now, able to raise its pollution restrictions above the EPA minimums by receiving special waivers from the agency.

So what's the big news?

The new changes are two-fold: First, California is now joined by a coalition of 15 other states who want waivers as well (Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington). Second, the latest waiver request involves the regulation of Carbon Dioxide (CO2).

California passed legislation curbing CO2 from automobiles in 2002, with the state law standing up to legal challenges from the auto industry in federal court. The EPA, however, has rejected California's request for a waiver to put its increased CO2 standards into effect. The decision has prompted Calfornia, with the support of the other states in this new coalition, to file a lawsuit against the EPA earlier this month.

The EPA's relationship with C02 is complicated by politics. The federal agency under the Clinton administration viewed CO2 as a pollutant and subject to regulation, while the Bush administration reversed course insisting in 2003 that greenhouse gases like CO2 were not pollutants and not subject to federal regulation.

The Bush position was forcibly altered, however, by the U.S. Supreme Court. Last year a similar coalition of states sued the EPA to regulate CO2, with the highest legal authority in the nation ruling in favor of the states by a 5-4 vote.

The current position of the EPA is that it has rejected California's waiver request not because it has no authority to regulate CO2 (forced upon it by the Supreme Court ruling), but on the basis that there should be just one federal standard rather than a state-by-state system of variable standards.

So legal mumbo jumbo aside, what does this all mean for motorcycles? The answer is nothing, for now. The potential, however, raises a couple of big issues. For starters, will CO2 levels from motorcycles be federally regulated in the future? The second intriguing issue is whether other states will one day apply for waivers like California and increase their emissions regulations for two-wheelers.

What would that mean? Well, just ask anyone in the V-Twin or genaral motorcycle aftermarket industry about their opinion on CARB - the agency charged with enforcing California's increased regs - and you'll get an idea. CARB isn't afraid to dole out fines for running afoul of the state's increased standards; just ask Dynojet, which had to eat a million-dollar fine this month after CARB deemed its Power Commander altered the air-fuel mixture beyond California's stricter standards. Now imagine 15 other CARB-like agencies sprinkled across the nation, muddying up an already murky regulation system.

Remember, for the moment all of these increases are targeted toward automobiles - in particular, toward encouraging manufacturers to increase automobile fuel efficiency, ergo higher MPG numbers. So, while automobiles are the clear target, motorcycles can't dodge the bullet forever. Motorcycles escaped increased federal regulations for 25 years before the last round of EPA regs, but it seems doubtful that two-wheelers will have another two and a half decades to skirt around the issue.

We may be Chicken Little on this one, but it's a situation that is well worth watching.

[K-dogg]

Do the Power Commanders come with any altered maps new?


Is it not up to the end user to program the unit?


This is asinine!


CARB comes to save the day again.

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Mark my words, the writing is on the wall and it's perfectly clear. Motorcyclists are going to take it in the shorts around here pretty soon. We'll have to have smog checks for our bikes and every illegal mod will be flagged and we'll be forced to return our bikes to stock.

Everything on my bike is stock for an RC45... it is so because I say so...

Stock 90 dba exhaust end cap...

[john S.]

Originally Posted by kdogg78

I live in Phoenix and see this everyday.. why the f%&k do i have to jump through the hoops to keep my vehicles smog leagal while these folks roll right through with smoking and severly unsafe vehicles. These trucks are complete piles of shit that are overlaoded and not anywhere near safe enough or fast enough for our freeways..

WTF is going on here i cant be the only one that sees this?

We will be exactly like the UK here in another 20 years.. no guns and heavily regulated and (more) heavily taxed.. I think its too late for this country .. Austria anyone?

Austria, you mean the birthplace of Hitler? I saw it coming. Everyone else in the automobile industry has to conform, been that way for a long time. Even headers have to be smog legal and they are. Power Commander apparently knew where they stood and maybe decided to fight it, but they obviously lost. There are CARB conforming numbers everywhere, from intakes to mufflers.

I hear all the protests, but why should motorcyclists be exempt from smog control laws? What high horse did we ride in on?

The 1 mil fine seems excessive to me considering other fines I have heard of levied against "big" companies for what it seems like more severe violations. I wonder what that ship company will get for smacking the Golden Gate Bridge?

Its just a matter of time before our exploding population and resulting waste will force us to make more drastic steps. Better find the technology now instead of dumping it on our grandkids.

All this negative talk about California. We have the biggest economy, advanced technology base, highly regarded Universities and most of all we are allowed to split traffic! That alone trumps all you chumps talking shit about our state. I feel sorry when I travel to other states and see motorcyclists stuck in bumper to bumper traffic in 100 degree heat. How many states have lane splitting laws for motorcycles? Not many I'm sure. However, we have to be careful and respectful of this. Takes a moron or two and we can loose it. I wouldn't own a motorcycle if I wasn't allowed to split traffic. It must be frustrating as hell not being allowed to.

[nedragr]

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with the first post but........The Kyoto Global Warming Treaty: Environmental Quackery and Economic Suicide A flawed science is where most this nonscence got it's legs.

Just my

[Area 51]

One thought I just had about our beloved government clamping down on bike mods:

If it shuts up those MOFO Harley's then maybe it's worth it.

[Area 51]

Originally Posted by nedragr

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with the first post but........The Kyoto Global Warming Treaty: Environmental Quackery and Economic Suicide A flawed science is where most this nonscence got it's legs.

Just my

What does that have to do with the first post?

[cutter]

Originally Posted by nedragr

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with the first post but........The Kyoto Global Warming Treaty: Environmental Quackery and Economic Suicide A flawed science is where most this nonscence got it's legs.

Just my

Before the lounge got closed down, oil propaganda like that link was exposed as fraudulent garbage.


I wonder if the increased standards helped with the smog in California?

I went out there when I was 12 and it was really bad in the mornings, has it cleaned up at all?

[gixracer]

nope no visible help that i saw last summer

i am no expert on smog though

the worst part about the smog was seeing it come up the valley into vegas and seeing that town fromn the mountains in a grey/green cloud, yuck
who knows it could be getting better

but i will say carb effectively wrote their paycheck for the year and did absolutely nothing to help the smog

[wdavis009]

Originally Posted by cutter

I wonder if the increased standards helped with the smog in California?

I went out there when I was 12 and it was really bad in the mornings, has it cleaned up at all?

Compared to the late 60's and early 70's when I lived there as a kid it is significantly better, but that is true pretty much everywhere except Gary, IN.