Sliding rear during turn

[v-2 superbike]

Merry X-mas everybody!

For all you track gurus out there, how do you practice sliding the rear while going through a turn and then spooling the power as you slingshot
out the apex? I believe a lot of ex dirt riders like Nicky Hayden employ this approach. To me unless you have great control and feel it looks like a highside in the making. Any comments would be appreciated.

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by v-2 superbike

To me unless you have great control and feel it looks like a highside in the making.

IMO, it's one of those things to leave for the big boys to explore, if you're serious in wanting to emulate the big boys then Id highly recommend buying a dirt bike and mastering that technique there before getting stupid enough to 'wing it' at a trackday event.

[Britt]

We have a flattrack and several XR100s, plus the American Supercamp is a great training tool for the basics of this.
I do agree with XFBO it is not something you just want to jump into at a track day.

[hank]

I was taught on an XR100 (w/knobby front, slick rear) in the dirt.

However, I quickly realized that given my advanced age and limited ability I simply don't need to do this type of stuff on the track... I'm not racing for $$$ or pie and the potential downside is too dramatic.

YMMV...

[XFBO]

Britt/Hank- Im glad you brought up the XR100's. It's something Ive been wanting to do many yrs ago after reading a piece on KRSR's training regimen.

Is the rear tire actually a slick or more along the ways of an on/off road type tire?


I havent had the chance to put any time in my proposed lil dirt roadcourse in my backyard (wooded area so I need to take a few trees down) but Im REAL interested in getting this done early this yr and some offroad training in on the XR or if I find a decent deal on the CRF.

[Britt]

We have a dunlop front tire on the rear of the XR100's, although we have had several guys bring bikes up here with full slicks front and rear...they work well here cuz it is hard Georgia clay, by the end of the day it will have a "blue groove" going into the turns...
Something else that works well is the harder compound front rains on both ends..

Eventually I am going to lace up some 17" wheels and put slicks on my bike or atleast some scuffed SuperMotard fronts...

[JavyDay]

I've done it by accident

[duckdawg]

anyone here want to do a supercamp this year?...

[wolf44]

I bought this, to work on that

[wolf44]

Originally Posted by JavyDay

I've done it by accident

Me too...it didn't work out so well...p.s. turn your volume down

YouTube Video

[banda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckingfuts
Can I ask a favor if you get the time?

Im wondering if you could give a blow by blow instruction on one or two of the best drills they taught you guys out there. Im on the west coast and havent found a similar type school out here to try. In the meantime we have a great dirt flat track down the road that I would like to start practicing my SM skills on. Im new to SM so any instruction on drills they taught would really help out until I can save for a school like that.

Thanks for any help you can give. -Joshua

Three general areas that Walker and crew bring all together at the end of the first day:

1) Body position - I will itemize from the head down. Eyes looking throught the corner. Shoulders parallel to the ground. Elbows up and bent. Hands on grips pointing your thumbs in at each other, throttle motion like turning a door knob. Outside elbow high. Inside hand fingers open up to keep the wrist at a natural angle. Back slouched, not stiff and upright. Hips opened up into the turn. Butt forward all the way like you're trying to sit on the gas cap. Butt crack on the outside corner of the seat. Outside knee pressed against the tank. Visualize pushing the gas cap to yuor inside knee. Inside foot stays on peg until the rear wheel steps out, then can come slightly forward and lisghtly out off the peg... unless you're turning to the right and still braking with the rear. Inside knee has a loose bend. Inside foot (once off the peg) points in the direction of travel.

2) Technique - in order as you approch the turn. Drive into the corner on the gas. No coasting! When it's time to slow down, roll off the throttle (don't snap shut) and "squeeze" the rear brake pedal evenly (don't stomp) . Push the bike down under you into the turn. The rear wheel slows and steps out without locking up. No front brake. Don't touch the clutch. At first, there is no braking effect, then when the rear comes around, the bike slows dramatically as you slide in a kind of button-hook path. As the speed decreases, and you stop pushing the bike down, and gradually let up on the rear brake, the front wheel "falls" naturally back into line with the rear wheel. You are pointing in a new direction. Roll on the throttle, and drive out in a straight line.

The variations come when you are entering tight enough corners at fast enough speeds. After the rear steps out, it's safe to squeeze the front brake lever smoothly to slow even more. Downshifting is done as needed... wait as long as you can, don't try to bang them all down at once, I find it easiest do do my last downshift just as the turn is finishing, right before driving out. Clutch lever is not really needed, except maybe the faintest touch at each individual downshift.

3)Racing line - At the end of each corner is the first straight line that connects the inside of the corner to the end of the next straight. That line extends all the way through that corner. Your button-hook braking pattern should put you on that line, pointed down that line, just as your front wheel falls into line. It doesn't matter where on that line, you just have to be on that line to drive out. The earlier you put the bike on that line, pointing down that line, the sooner you can get on the gas.

Take this information and use it wisely. Try it on a small motorcycle at low speed. Don't think you can digest this and do it at 80 mph the first time on a big bike.

Good luck!

[z-man]

I recommend trying it out first as those above suggested on a small dirtbike. It is much less painful and costly when you make a mistake. Keep in mind this is an advanced technique and for me it just kind of began to happen, very gradually. Once you let the rear tire go loose you need to be very very careful.

I find I slide the rear tire in two situtations.

1. Late downshifting, finishing my downshifting as I start into a turn can cause a predictable slide from the rear tire. I know a lot of motard guys use this approach.

2. Getting on the gas earlier, as you work on getting on the gas earlier and earlier, bit by bit. You will begin to slide out the rear tire. I went from a standard tail to a superbike tail and really started to feel this. The seat absorbed some of the feel for me and I realized I was doing this when exiting a corner.

I know some guys will square off a turn like dirtbike riding by hitting the rear brake. You can think of it like a double apex turn or a ^. You come in to a point spin the rear tire out and get the bike pointed in the direction you are after. Some racers with a lot of dirtbike riding experience will tap on the rear brake to get the rear tire to step out. For me I feel comfortable doing this on my dirtbike (I'm a low level intermediate) but I've been known to hold it too long and crash. I'm not comfortable doing this on my race bike, yet. But it is all about squaring off the turn like dirtbike riding and getting back on the gas as soon as possible.

Z

[Turbo329]

Originally Posted by hank

I was taught on an XR100 (w/knobby front, slick rear) in the dirt.

However, I quickly realized that given my advanced age and limited ability I simply don't need to do this type of stuff on the track... I'm not racing for $$$ or pie and the potential downside is too dramatic.

YMMV...

Yeah, I've seen you do it coming out of the Bus Stop at Pocono. Phenominal.

[duckdawg]

Two things, on the pavement, I use the clutch when downsifting into the corner, and you never roll all the way out of the gas. When the back tire steers you onto that imaginary straight line, roll the gas back on smoothly. And don't hang it out there too far, just enough to get you pointed down the straight. By staying in contact with the motor, you can "feel" what's happening better. It's the motor that keeps the bike upright...

[Busy Little Shop]

I learned... by trial and error... to slide the rear racing MX in
SoCal... I learned that a bike in a slide will handle in a predictable
manner... it's the rider that's the wild variable component... I
learned that at the limit of adhesion a motorcycle will automatically
compensates for rear end slides by pointing the front wheel into the
slide... but if the body tenses up or turns the bars to straighten up
I risked high siding... the key was the bars and not the body...

Steps to sliding the rear:

1 Find the corners turn in point...

2 After reaching your turn in point shift your eyes to the apex...

3 Applied one quick steering input and then leave the bars alone...

4 Roll on the throttle as early as possible because the bike is now
under the rear contact patch control... the front isn't all that
important past the apex... in fact it can actually be lifted off the
ground and the bike will continue to track on line... the more berries
you give it the more greasy the edge feels... be ready for little
imperfections on the surface to cause the rear to kick out of line...

On the street I've used my dirt bike honed automatic slide response to
work my way out of a cold tire oopsies ... because I had a learned response
in place of no learned response I did not panic all that much... well
the thought of tossing my 27K prize still raises the hair on my
head...

Rennsport RS3 cold tire slide during a left turn on Elverta...

[Utah Taz]

I've been doing it for years & it just comes naturally, but then again I grew up racing dirt bikes & TT.

After getting into SuperMoto, I found myself noticing it more than on the road race bike, but when squaring off the corner it just happens
I don't try to, it just does.
Just remember though, "Backing It In", is scrubbing off speed & isn't as practical in road racing, as to why Hayden went to Freddie Spencer to help him "not" do that & learn better way's to take lines to p/u more corner speeds.

I'm with the other guy's that a XR100/150/230 or like bike is perfect to learn on & less damage when you bite it (& you will ).

I've found the funniest places to practice sliding on like bikes on fire roads in SoCal & up here in Utah, while the Kart/SuperMoto track is next best & safer.

good luck & stay safe !

[duckdawg]

what Taz says, exactly!...

[Just Riding Along]

Rich Oliver's Mystery School maybe on the West coast?

[UnpaintedHuffhines]

o well, they didnt work

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[998Junkie]

Originally Posted by Just Riding Along

Rich Oliver's Mystery School maybe on the West coast?

+1 Great school and great time.