Rossi grumbling

[JBs_SP3]

The "is it the rider or the equipment?" debate could go on forever ... probably will. One things for sure: "Loopy" Lorenzo joining Rossi at Yamaha next year will be interesting. Personally I think VR is still the class act of the paddock but if Lorenzo starts beating him on the same equipment? Ciao Bello.

[247]

Stoner is on the best bike.
Stoner has the best tires, and is also the best Bridgestone rider.

No one else on Bridgestones has the talent AND the bike to compete with Stoner consistently.
IMO, there are 3 Michelin guys that have the talent to beat Casey with equal equipment, but they are on lesser bikes and lesser tires right now.

Top 5 riders in MotoGP, IMO.

Rossi
Dani
Stoner & Melandri
Hayden

Next 5
CV, Hopkins, RdP, Elias, Capirossi

[varium]

I don't see Rossi as crying about anything. Can't find anywhere that he is bashing anyone. Seems he is a bit frustrated and has voiced in a professional manner his wishes to see the same fire under Yami's pants that they had when he first came over there. He probably feels they are either complacent or just not showing that they are putting in enough effort to give him a bike that lets him finish number one, rather than having to ride past the bikes abilities just to come in second or not even podium.

[wdavis009]

Originally Posted by XFBO

I think the smacktalking they're referring to were the remarks Rossi and several others had made in reference to Stoner being somewhat dangerous. IIRC, they all thought he was a potential missle and were terrified to be anywhere near him.

Okay, I forgot about that. Haven't heard any of that talk this year though.

Originally Posted by XFBO

Ive said it a million times, if it were JUST THE BIKE then I suppose the same holds true in Rossi's early yrs with Honda when he had nothing but the best of everything??????...............Or maybe not for the Rossi die hard fans?

I don't think anyone (who has sense) says it is just the bike (overall package, including tires) or just the rider. The issue has always been what is most important: the rider or the bike. Some riders are able to ride around problems with the bike; others seem more dependent on the bike set-up being just right. While Rossi's performance in '04 and '05 tended to put the focus on the rider, I think last year and this year has shown that even the best riders can only overcome so much, especially as the field becomes more competitive.

[Old Baldy]

Originally Posted by Still SP3

What's your point? He had the chance to sign and did not. The reason(s) for his decision to spurn Ducati doesn't matter only that he has now had his ass handed to him by the very combination he could have had. In other words, he made his bed .....

My point, as wdavis said better than me, is that all the talk of Rossi not being the great racer he is out there and that he only achieved his previous domination because he had the best package, and that he is now struggling not because of an uncompetitive package, but rather because the pressure has got to him or that he "folds" under pressure, is simply beyond my understanding and belief.

Rossi's opinion on the lack of competitiveness of his package (overdue, in my opinion) means that he's now a "whiner!" WTF? How so? Because he happened to state the clearly obvious fact in public after 2 seasons of a less than competitive package? Jeez...incredible!

I don't know any professional racer LESS like a whiner than Rossi. I'm surprised he has taken so long to say ANYTHING about the Yamaha package in public.

Some of the opinions above are frankly beyond belief, for an old bloke like me who has been following MGP and 500 GP for 30+ years.

I will state it again. Put Rossi and all the others on an identical package, with the same bike, same traction, same relaibility, same tires....and he wins 95% of the time. That is MY opinion, and if it differs from some of yours, then that's fine with me. Just give the guy some respect, OK?

And Larry, Rossi is looking for a competitive package, not only one part of the package. That includes the very components that are letting him down now - including not only the motor, but the tires, the traction control, the reliability, the fuel consumption control and everything else that determines the success of the mechanical package. He wouldn't be interested in a fabulously powerful and smooth V-4 motor if it resulted in abbike with crappy handling, or if the traction control systems allowed the tire to burn itself out halfway through the race, or if it kept dropping valves, etc, etc, etc.

So I'm done with the topic, because it will never be resolved as all of the above (including my own comments) are mostly opinion and there's no practical way to prove anything here other than results.

Which reminds me....

Wins...
The Official MotoGP Website

Championships...
The Official MotoGP Website

Yeah, Rossi is not so great. WTF?

[wdavis009]

Originally Posted by 247

Top 5 riders in MotoGP, IMO.

Rossi
Dani
Stoner & Melandri
Hayden

I somewhat agree with your top 5 but I am not yet convinced Dani ranks #2 or that Melandri is Stoner's equal (even though I like both of them). Melandri, in particular, seems less capable of riding around problems with the bike.

[Busy Little Shop]

Originally Posted by Old Baldy

And Larry, Rossi is looking for a competitive package, not only one part of the package. That includes the very components that are letting him down now - including not only the motor, but the tires, the traction control, the reliability, the fuel consumption control and everything else that determines the success of the mechanical package. He wouldn't be interested in a fabulously powerful and smooth V-4 motor if it resulted in abbike with crappy handling, or if the traction control systems allowed the tire to burn itself out halfway through the race, or if it kept dropping valves, etc, etc, etc.

True but a competitive package begins with the basic engine architect...
and out of the two architects battling for supremacy... one is going to win
the other is going to wane...

The V4 is most appealing to the engineers because:

1 hooks up better and needs less traction control...
2 is easier on the contact patch...
3 narrow profile eats less gas while still producing the highest top speeds...
4 smallish crankshaft produces less of a negative gyroscopic effect...

In short the Inlines have changed the most to stay up the Vs whereas the
Vs have changed the least...

[XFBO]

Originally Posted by Old Baldy

Which reminds me....

For starters, I dont think ANYONE has seriously dismissed Rossi as a has been. What many ppl have done is flip common arguments made by Rossi fans back at them......ie. its the bike more than Stoner, he's got the better bike, etc...

I, too, have been following the GP for several yrs and I cant honestly remember anyone ever accusing Rossi of having superior equipment and that's why he's winning.

The way I look at it, Stoner's GP experience is almost mimicking Rossi's, they both had a fair share of crashes in their rookie season and they both took the championship on their second season. So to compare someone who's on his 8th GP yr compared to someone in their 2nd yr is ridiculous.

What Stoner did THIS season is nothing different than what Rossi did in '02....IMO ofcourse......less all the insults tho.

Oh and one last thing, you can say or think whatever you want but Rossi choked in that final round last yr. As much experience as Rossi has, it's never come down to the final round.......even he wasnt used to that kind of pressure.

[mrgrn]

ANybody who says rossi only wins on the best package must not have watched the first two years he was on the yammy that bike was CLEARLY way sub par in bike terms and he rode around EVERY issue and rode hard and won two championships against better teams and better bikes. I think yamaha was willing to do anything at that time to make the bike rossi wanted/needed to win and win he and they did. i think they lapsed some on the 800 for whatever reason, and now the yamaha is incapable of being ridden around those problems regardless of whether the greatest rider is riding it combined with the fact the tires are not as good so it is two fold.

I rossi for saying something as he should, he is their hope, thier spokesman, their champion, who else should say something? if they can't give him a bike even capable by him of winning why should he stay? he is not aksing for the best bike just something a bit behind the other bikes with better tires so he can stand a chance of winning.

CE biached about the SP2 to HRC as he needed more power in the midst of trying to come back and with the WSBK and everybody was like hell yeah and now rossi does almost the same and he is a winer?

i think it stems from rossi staying quite for so long and for him doing parlor tricks that people don't see. he had ridden total crap from yamaha while they forged ahead and people thought nothing of it yet he was wringing the neck off that pile o crap. he is now foing the same but they seem to have stopped trying to improve

be nice to see him move to the suzi

[sqd8r]

The Rossi double standard rears its ugly head again.

When Rossi won two seasons on the Yamaha everyone was touting how it was the rider never the bike.

Now we've had two seasons and two titles bypass Rossi and all of a sudden it's the Honda's superiority to the Yamaha that was the difference, not Hayden having the measure of Rossi. Now it's the Ducati straightline speed being superior to the poor old crappy I4 Yamaha, despite all evidence to the contrary.

BTW Rossi's not asking for different tires.

Soup :: Ryder Notes: Rossi & Pedrosa on Stones In '08? :: 10-13-2007

I can't wait to see the excuses at the end of next season.

[veetwinducati]

For Rossi to drag the sorry ass of the package he has been handed this season to very likely runners up spot in the championship......says lots for the talent the guy has.

That stated by someone who though appreciating his talent...is by no means a Rossi fan.

With Melandri and Stoner next season we could have a Mclarenesque type situation in Moto GP! Who's the best, which one's Italian on an Italian bike blah blah. I predict those two will be at it hammer and tongue like the good old gentle days of Criville and Doohan!

[duckdawg]

When Nicky's bike scattered today, I was thinkn he must have convinced the crew to wick the motor all the way up and turn the auto pilot down. Certain tracks, he has a great lap for, and Phillip is one of them. I agree with Larry though, the days of the inline are numbered for real racing.
and Rossi will always be Rossi...

[wdavis009]

Originally Posted by sqd8r

BTW Rossi's not asking for different tires.

Both Yamaha and Honda, at the requests of Rossi and Pedrosa, attempted to switch to Bridgestone for '08. Bridgestone declined. That, according to the rumors, is what has prompted Dorna to consider spec tires for next year, i.e., if Bridgestone won't provide Yamaha and Honda tires Dorna will force them to.

[wdavis009]

Originally Posted by sqd8r

When Rossi won two seasons on the Yamaha everyone was touting how it was the rider never the bike.

And the past two years have shown that argument was inaccurate. That said, Rossi did more with the M1 package than anyone else, just as Casey has done more with the Ducati package than anyone else.

[wdavis009]

Originally Posted by veetwinducati

With Melandri and Stoner next season we could have a Mclarenesque type situation in Moto GP! Who's the best, which one's Italian on an Italian bike blah blah. I predict those two will be at it hammer and tongue like the good old gentle days of Criville and Doohan!

Maybe, or Marco may end up doing no better than Loris on the Ducati. I suspect that is more likely to occur than Marco challenging Stoner. Should be an interesting season.

[247]

First off- when Rossi won on the M1, it was the rider, the bike was never at anytime better than the RC211V.

Second- Hayden has never had, and will never have, "the measure of Rossi". That is just hysterical. Hayden has had 81 starts on a Repsosl Honda in the last 5 years and has 3 wins. Rossi has 38 during the same period.
Finally- Regarding the Ducati. The electronics and handling are very good and the Bridgestones are superior to Michelins. More importantly, the Ducati seems to have a clear power advantage over the M1.
So, how do you figure that there is evidence to the contrary?

Originally Posted by sqd8r

When Rossi won two seasons on the Yamaha everyone was touting how it was the rider never the bike.

Now we've had two seasons and two titles bypass Rossi and all of a sudden it's the Honda's superiority to the Yamaha that was the difference, not Hayden having the measure of Rossi.

Now it's the Ducati straightline speed being superior to the poor old crappy I4 Yamaha, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[sqd8r]

Originally Posted by wdavis009

And the past two years have shown that argument was inaccurate. That said, Rossi did more with the M1 package than anyone else, just as Casey has done more with the Ducati package than anyone else.

Yes, but do you see anyone saying it was Stoner and not the package. That's my point.

[sqd8r]

Originally Posted by 247

First off- when Rossi won on the M1, it was the rider, the bike was never at anytime better than the RC211V.

Second- Hayden has never had, and will never have, "the measure of Rossi". That is just hysterical. Hayden has had 81 starts on a Repsosl Honda in the last 5 years and has 3 wins. Rossi has 38 during the same period.
Finally- Regarding the Ducati. The electronics and handling are very good and the Bridgestones are superior to Michelins. More importantly, the Ducati seems to have a clear power advantage over the M1.
So, how do you figure that there is evidence to the contrary?

Read the Dennis Noyes article discussing the Ducati straight line speed superiority and you'll see what I mean. Noyes breaks it down to the percentile, including how long they remain at full throttle and how much of an impact the straight line ability has over the course of the season.

Hayden for 2006 had the measure of Rossi. Ultimately a title decides that. That doesn't mean Hayden is the better rider but if the leg humpers are going to insist it's the rider and not the entire package then that is the result.

You can't have it both ways bud.

Bottom line, if it was just the rider when Rossi went over to Yamaha then answer me this; why did Rossi need to take the most successful Moto GP team manager and his entire multi-title Honda winning crew with him? Then consider that Jeremy Burgess is not in favour of the one tire rule... Seems to me that it isn't the tires.

[duckdawg]

exactly...

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by sqd8r

Read the Dennis Noyes article discussing the Ducati straight line speed superiority and you'll see what I mean. Noyes breaks it down to the percentile, including how long they remain at full throttle and how much of an impact the straight line ability has over the course of the season.

Hayden for 2006 had the measure of Rossi. Ultimately a title decides that. That doesn't mean Hayden is the better rider but if the leg humpers are going to insist it's the rider and not the entire package then that is the result.

You can't have it both ways bud.

Bottom line, if it was just the rider when Rossi went over to Yamaha then answer me this; why did Rossi need to take the most successful Moto GP team manager and his entire multi-title Honda winning crew with him? Then consider that Jeremy Burgess is not in favour of the one tire rule... Seems to me that it isn't the tires.

answer me this then. even if he did not NEED Jerry why would he not want to take him? Honda was talking crap and trying to control him so he left and took his friend and team, what is the point? if jerry did not want to go he would not have