Rossi grumbling

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by manic

What factor does his 30lb weight advantage play into the speed and tire life? Any Pedro fan have an answer that doesn't envolve BS?

that should have advantage being so light

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop

Quote Furusawa:
"We have made a lot of computer simulations of a V4 and we have found good and bad points," Furusawa said in a media presentation. Yamaha preferred the in-line four because it permits a more compact engine and a shorter wheelbase.



V4 GOOD POINTS:

1) Cube-like crankcase are inherently more rigid than the longer,
beam-like case of an I4 engine.

2) Short V4 crankshaft travels less and weights less than an I4...

3) 90º V4 has perfect primary balance, a great improvement over
the buzzy, second-order vibration of an I4...

4) A narrow V4 affords up to a 35% reduction in aerodynamic drag over
the wide I4...

5) A V4 has less internal crank bearing friction and able to deliver
more rear wheel HP...

6) A V4 sports superior power delivery and able to achieve greater
tire grip...

7) Rossi believes more in the new V4 than the old I4...

8) The V4 exceeds the current I4 in MotoGp...


V4 BAD POINTS:

1) More costly...

2) "Yamaha's in-line four has a more compact engine and a shorter
wheelbase."

3) "We stick with the I4" because V4s are not a part of Yamaha's plans
to dominate WSBK...

4) The I4 may match the V4 in the future...

let's hope that yamaha does not catch a case of Honda's pride on this one

[kiwigav]

Originally Posted by 247

WOW!
So you're going to claim that Dani got preferential treatment regarding tires as a 1st year 125 GP rider?
Not as a 1st year rider, but if you care to check the facts you'll find that Pedrosa was in his 3rd year on a 125 when Stoner entered on the KTM!

And that Dani's Honda was superior to Casey's LCR factory Aprilia? Comeon: The Hondas have been out gunned power-wise by Aprilia's disc valve RSW 250 for years.
Want to deny again that Stoner's bike was factory spec?

OK! But the Aprilia website says otherwise...
Racing Aprilia Official Site

An exerpt: "The 250 World Championship ended with Aprilia in second place in the manufacturer’s classification, separated from the leader only by ten points. Of the riders, Casey Stoner was the best... atop the official RSW 250 that was entrusted to Team Carrera Sunglasses..."

So what did you expect it to say after he nearly wins the title? He's on an unofficial RSW250? The official factory team was the MS Aprilia Italia Corse. I guess Casey himself would know whether he had the "official" top spec "factory" bike, he's always stated he didnt.

And why would Dunlop (250 spec tire provider) give preference to Honda in 2005 over the whole factory Aprilia squad?

As the current World Champion wouldn't Dani Pedrosa expect that maybe Dunlop would be helping him?

[247]

FWIW- and obviously, we're just beating our respective deceased horses here...

I wasn't really comparing Stoner and Pedrosa "head to head" during their 125 and 250 careers. I was looking at their respective results against the whole field.

As far as the Aprilia 250 question: the truth is that Casey has always told a lot of interesting stories about how his equipment was subpar at various times.

Have you heard his conspiracy theory that Michelin was sprinkling pixie dust on his tires (or giving him sabotaged tires) before the races last year causing him to crash? Fascinating.

Anyway- Dani has outperformed Casey every year in his career, except for this one.

Either:
Casey's skill level has taken a huge leap overnight... (I doubt it)
OR:
The Ducati/Bridgestone package was so good that it allowed him to ride at 99%, and still win 10 races... (my belief)
OR:
Casey has always had GOAT level skills and talent, but has been plagued by 2nd rate equipment ant tires thorughout his career... (your belief?)

Now the question I would ask of anyone who believes the scenario directly above is this... IF Stoner has GOAT level talent, why was it unrecognized by all the factory teams and team owners during his 5 full years in the GP world before 2007?
Why was he Ducati's 3rd choice for 2007? Are they all blind?
Why wasn't he given a full factory ride after his first year on a 125 or 250?

Best wishes!

[247]

What the hell ever happened to Rider is 90%/Bike is 10%?
Damned if I know! I've never even heard anyone make such a goofy claim before.

And where did you ever get the idea that Dani's bike was slow?
Maybe in the first couple races, but recently the Repsol bikes have had very good power.
Dani had the top speed (304 KPH) of the weekend at Valencia. Rossi was 12th at 295 KPH.
His bike was 2nd at Sepang. Rossi was 11th.

Originally Posted by Dragger

No more excuses.

Tires, motor, bike, what the hell happened to the Rider is 90%/Bike is 10%?

Rossi was even beat by Pedro who is on a slower bike (RC212V is a joke) on the same tires.

[sqd8r]

Originally Posted by 247

...why was it unrecognized by all the factory teams and team owners during his 5 full years in the GP world before 2007?
Why was he Ducati's 3rd choice for 2007? Are they all blind?
Why wasn't he given a full factory ride after his first year on a 125 or 250?

Nationality, and the accompanying sponsor dollars plays a significant part in riders selected. It has always been this way esp. When you look at the long and less than stellar careers of Sete and Tamada, for example, it is apparent that sponsor funds secured their seats, not their results. Sete in particular may have had moments of brilliance in the latter portion of his career but his many years outside the top ten should have seen him give up the seat. Traditionally Brits and Aussie's have never brought the dollars that the Spanish or Italians bring.

[247]

Maybe if a team is looking for 2nd rider, or if it is a marginally funded second tier satellite outfit.
I really doubt if the factory Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kawasaki Teams would care where riders are from... if they have GOAT level talent... like you guys claim Stoner does.

Originally Posted by sqd8r

Nationality, and the accompanying sponsor dollars plays a significant part in riders selected. It has always been this way esp. When you look at the long and less than stellar careers of Sete and Tamada, for example, it is apparent that sponsor funds secured their seats, not their results. Sete in particular may have had moments of brilliance in the latter portion of his career but his many years outside the top ten should have seen him give up the seat. Traditionally Brits and Aussie's have never brought the dollars that the Spanish or Italians bring.

[dj_wawa]

Originally Posted by sqd8r

Nationality, and the accompanying sponsor dollars plays a significant part in riders selected. It has always been this way esp. When you look at the long and less than stellar careers of Sete and Tamada, for example, it is apparent that sponsor funds secured their seats, not their results. Sete in particular may have had moments of brilliance in the latter portion of his career but his many years outside the top ten should have seen him give up the seat. Traditionally Brits and Aussie's have never brought the dollars that the Spanish or Italians bring.

fuzz, Checa is a perfect example of this!

[veetwinducati]

Get your nose peg ready fella,here comes a Dani fan!

Ok well since living in my adopted home of Spain for the past 7 years I have been able to take a long close look at the bike scene here and on thw world scene. There are many a good rider out there on the world scene now,(some very good one's moving up to Moto GP for 2008 in particular) but you know little Dani really does have something extra.

Suggesting it is his diminutive size is really missing so much. He rides so clean and smooth,if you see his bike bucking it is because he can really push the envelope when needed. Plus he is still not totally happy with how his bike handles.

A key point is the fact that so often in a very Rossi-esque manner in both 125 and 250 racing he was able to hold something back for that late last run at pole position.

Now that Honda have caught up big time with their prototype machine, we have seen him do that very same thing in the blue riband class.(I am not sure anyone has ever claimed 4 poles in succesion in the 4 stroke era?)

Given a package that works, this kid is an absolute dream to watch. If given the right tools he will do the job. The onlñy area he lacks when rascing in the big boy category is the out and out fairing bashing mentality to go head to head and force the issue. His main disadvanytage with that skill in my mind is his lack of size, under heavy braking he more than anyone gets thrown forward out of the saddle which obviously is very unsettling for someone trying to make a late attack going in to a turn.However he did have a good number of occasions when he had to do that in the lower classes so maybe soon he will perfect it soon in Moto GP.

So to reiterate, Dani is a class act and for sure a future champion if top equpipment is made available to him. He has no fear of the boys moving up next season as he has beaten all of them readilly before stepping up himself.

He is no clown Prince for sure. He is a very introverted and private individual. You might not get bundles of smiles off him,but nor will you get BS. He calls it straight and is 100% dedicated to the job in hand.

[Busy Little Shop]

Why did you hear about Rossi and Stoner... cackle cackle cackle...

[sqd8r]

Originally Posted by 247

Maybe if a team is looking for 2nd rider, or if it is a marginally funded second tier satellite outfit.
I really doubt if the factory Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kawasaki Teams would care where riders are from... if they have GOAT level talent... like you guys claim Stoner does.

A little history.

Honda Plays Hardball with Valentino
Written by: Dennis Noyes
Borrego Springs, CA – 11/14/2003
Valentino Rossi is getting the cold shoulder from Honda after leaving the team (Photo: Andrew Northcott)
All the polite talk that has surrounded the decision of Valentino Rossi to leave the Repsol Honda team to join Yamaha is proving to be just that, polite talk. Today, however, a polite request from Yamaha Team Director Davide Brivio asking Honda to allow Rossi to test the Yamaha YZR M1 during a three day test at Sepang, Malayisa starting on November 28, has been answered by an equally polite refusal which speaks of “affection” and “respect” but is clearly no big “no.”

Brivio claims to be surprised that Honda would not agree to help Yamaha get their testing program underway with the five times World Champion and points out that Yamaha allowed Biaggi to test with Honda (Team Pons) immediately after the 2002 season ended, but he forgets that Yamaha fired Biaggi whereas Rossi quit Honda.

There was speculation that Honda might be willing to do some horse-trading in this matter, freeing Rossi to test for Honda if Yamaha released Alex Barros to join the Repsol team without enforcing the multi-million dollar release clause in the Brazilian’s contract. It might turn out that a couple of million bucks means a lot more to Yamaha, who have just signed Rossi and 80% of his technical crew for what has got to be more than 10 million dollars, than to Honda…even if Honda really does end up signing Barros.

A statement from Tech 3 Yamaha (the current Gauloises Yamaha team) owner Herve Poncheral on Tuesday in which he stated that he hoped to keep the Brazilian riding for him in 2004, might be an indication that the whole Barros-to-Repsol Honda deal is no longer a sure thing.

With a line-up of Nicky Hayden, Sete Gibernau, Max Biaggi and Makoto Tamada now reinforced by the signing of Colin Edwards, Honda really don’t need yet another top rider. But Repsol, the Spanish petroleum giant with interests in Brazil, Argentina and other South American countries, desperately needs a Spanish or South American rider to make commercial sense out of their investment.

Rossi’s global fame made the Repsol Honda sponsorship valuable since Rossi is probably as popular in Spain as any Spanish rider and as popular in Brazil as Barros. The same is not true, however, of the 2003 Rookie of the Year, Nicky Hayden.

Honda have made it abundantly clear that they are not going to let a sponsor decide their rider signings. Carlo Fiorani, HRC Race Team Director, said that the sponsor of a soccer team would never have the right to make out the starting line-up, and that HRC recognized the legitimate interests of Repsol and, in the event that a top Spanish or South American rider were available, HRC would take nationality into consideration, “all other factors being equal,” but with Carlos Checa riding for Yamaha and Sete Gibernau with the Telefónica Movistar Honda Gresini team, the number of suitable Spanish or South American riders available is very limited.

A couple of 250 riders were considered at one time by Repsol but neither is really ready for MotoGP and, besides, both have already signed: Sebas Porto (Argentina) has signed with Aprilia. Toni Elias (Spain) has signed with a Fortuna Honda team which will run within the Gresini structure.

That really leaves only three riders:

Alex Barros (Brazil), a winner of two of the last four races in 2002 on an RC211V, but coming off a dismal year with Yamaha. He did get Yamaha’s only podium, but he crashed 14 times and never battled for a win.

Fonsi Nieto (Spain), a mercurial rider in 250 for the Telefónica-Repsol Aprilia 250 team. He was considered one of the favorites for the title in 2003 but won only a single race and was out-paced by team mate Elias over the second half of the season. He is very popular in Spain both because of his famous father, Angel Nieto, a thirteen times World Champion, and because of his movie star girlfriend, Elsa Pataki. (Because of his popularity, Nieto has been featured in a national Telefónica Movistar mobile phone TV advertising campaign with Pataki, something that annoys Repsol who share sponsorship of the Aprilia 250 team that Elias and Nieto rode for this year.) But, with Elias moving to Honda, Nieto will almost certainly stay on as the lead rider in the Valencia-based Aprilia team.

And finally, World Superbike runner-up Rubén Xaus, who seems almost certain to sign with the number two Ducati Corse team, owned by Luis D’Antin, in MotoGP.

It is also unlikely that HRC would accept Nieto who has no big bike experience. There was some talk in Repsol of Xaus, but most Spanish journalists feel that Xaus will stay with Ducati, either in MotoGP or, a less likely possibility, in the AMA Superbike championship.

There might still be the possibility of HRC and Yamaha arriving at some kind of understanding that would waive Barros’ release fee in exchange for granting Rossi the freedom to test before his contract expires on December 31. Brivio was quoted on the MotoGP website as saying, “Now we will have to see if we can do anything to change the situation.”

Meanwhile the clock ticks on and Yamaha may have to start their pre-season testing program with Carlos Checa, whose riding style and set-up preferences are not the same as Rossi’s, doing the work at a test scheduled in Sepang at the end of this month.

Now take a good look at the current Moto GP sponsor list and more importantly the countries these companies hail from. I suggest you also look at some other Dennis Noyes articles regarding nationality esp. the article this season or last on how Moto GP is becoming a Spanish-Italian affair due to the grassroots programs from 5 y.o.a. and the significant sponsor dollars behind it. Nationality has much to do with Moto GP, if not everything in many cases.

[247]

You apparently have mis-read or misconstrued my post. I will run it by you again.

Maybe if a team is looking for 2nd rider, or if it is a marginally funded second tier satellite outfit.
I really doubt if the factory Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kawasaki Teams would care where riders are from... if they have GOAT level talent... like you guys claim Stoner does.

Your Noyes article is interesting, I love his stuff, but it no way addresses my post. The fact that Repsol wanted Honda to sign a latin when Rossi left is well known and makes sense.

They ultimately signed Barros, but they sure as hell didn't pass on any hot, young GOAT level talent to do so. There wasn't much to choose from in the 2003 off season...

The fact that Spanish and Italian riders excel has more to do with the overall level of interest in the sport and grassroots programs than corporate string pulling.

[GAMBLER]

information or disinformation?

one story says pneumatic is the direction Yam is headed in, then the next thing you read they have abandoned the valve train

WTF

The following is from Mike Nicks blog during Sunday's Valencian Grand Prix (I'm not surprised by the V4 decision):


Yamaha Rejects Pneumatic Valves and V4 for 2008 ...

In its struggle to win back the MotoGP world championship, Yamaha will NOT build a V4 engine, will NOT adopt pneumatic valve gear, and will NOT copy Ducati's desmosdromic valve operation.

This extraordinary series of apparently negative decisions - which fly in the face of rival manufacturers' experiences - has been revealed at Valencia by Masao Furusawa, Yamaha's head of engineering.

Furusawa said that he has investigated alternatives for the YZR-M1, but will stick with an in-line four-cylinder layout, using traditional valve spring technology.

"We have made a lot of computer simulations of a V4 and we have found good and bad points," Furusawa said in a media presentation. Yamaha preferred the in-line four because it permits a more compact engine and a shorter wheelbase.

Furusawa admitted that valve springs had a ceiling of 19,000-20,000rpm. But he said: "Increasing the rpm increases the power, but at the same time you have more friction between the piston and the cylinder. And I don't think that over 20,000rpm is the way to go. I would like to make an engine that has lower rpm but good torque, one that makes a good 'conversation' between the rider and the tyre."

Yamaha has tested a pneumatic-valve engine this year, but Kouichi Tsuji, leader of the M1 project, said: "From the point of view of fuel efficiency and power, we have had no gain from it. If we find a benefit we would be ready to use it."

Kawasaki is currently proving that an in-line engine can match the V4s used by Ducati, Honda and Suzuki: in qualifying at Valencia Randy de Puniet was quickest through the speed trap at 300.8kph (186.796mph). But Valentino Rossi, the quickest Yamaha rider, hit only 293.5kph (182.263mph - 4.533mph slower).

Why is the Yamaha still lagging? "We are struggling to maintain horsepower and fuel efficiency," Furusawa admitted. "We always try to make a good engine, but the result isn't always the same as our plans."

Rossi will be hoping that Yamaha can recover power parity with other manufacturers during winter testing prior to the 2008 season.

[kiwigav]

Yeah, well, it works for Kawasaki!

As for Stoner, didn't he in fact have a factory ride in 125's for KTM? And according to you (247) he had a full factory ride with the "official" RSW250 Priller?
Thing with Stoner is he's always been in a hurry and hasn't bothered to stick around to collect a world title.
One season on a privateer 250, one year on a 125, back into 250's for one season, and now two years in MotoGP, thats it.
And the Aussies aren't doing too bad in MotoGP at the moment, 3 riders on factory bikes and 1 world title!

[sqd8r]

Yup, you can't argue stats and facts no matter how many leg humpers try.

[duckdawg]

wow, 17 pages of this shit...

[247]

Stoner actually had a total of 4 full years in 125/250 GP comeptition, with two full years on 125s and two full years on 250s. I don't know why that wasn't long enough for him to "collect a world title".
That's 4 years, no titles.


Dani did 3 years on 125s with one title and 2 years on 250s with 2 titles.
That's 5 years, 3 titles.

Rossi did 2 years on 125s and 250s with a title on each in his second year.
That's 4 years, 2 titles.

Originally Posted by kiwigav

Thing with Stoner is he's always been in a hurry and hasn't bothered to stick around to collect a world title.
One season on a privateer 250, one year on a 125, back into 250's for one season, and now two years in MotoGP, thats it.

[flippy]

Originally Posted by 247

Stoner actually had a total of 4 full years in 125/250 GP comeptition, with two full years on 125s and two full years on 250s. I don't know why that wasn't long enough for him to "collect a world title".
That's 4 years, no titles.


Dani did 3 years on 125s with one title and 2 years on 250s with 2 titles.
That's 5 years, 3 titles.

Rossi did 2 years on 125s and 250s with a title on each in his second year.
That's 4 years, 2 titles.

You tell them, 247!!

It was all about TC of the Ducati's and bridgestones this year. Ok, Casey is a good rider but not great...I will change my mind if he continues to win title after title...not that you care.

[kiwigav]

Originally Posted by flippy

You tell them, 247!!

It was all about TC of the Ducati's and bridgestones this year. Ok, Casey is a good rider but not great...I will change my mind if he continues to win title after title...not that you care.

So are Capirossi and Barros "good" riders?
I'm looking but I don't see a 1-2-3 Ducati finish in the championship?

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by kiwigav

So are Capirossi and Barros "good" riders?
I'm looking but I don't see a 1-2-3 Ducati finish in the championship?

barros is old as dirt, come on

the cap is suited better for the AMA, pleez