Rossi grumbling

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by Jami6989

The rider w/ the most points won the 2006 MotoGP World Championship! Just like every other year?

Nicky tells you how many years u've been waiting for a Championship.......

and this is how man years since your newest bandwagon hero has won one

[kiwigav]

So now some of Rossi's wins are "tarnished" because he has had the best equipment? Most champions end up with the best stuff, have you looked back at the competition that Agostini had in winning his titles? Back in the 500cc GP days at one stage Michelin had "A" spec tires that they supplied the "A" listed riders, then some of these tires were available to the best of the rest, based on qualifying or previous results. These tires were suppose to be worth about a 1 second per lap. Some riders struggled when getting the good rubber as once they had so much better grip they found their suspension settings etc were no longer relevant. The top Michelin rubber has always been a premium tire that was only available to a few.

[flippy]

Originally Posted by kiwigav

So now some of Rossi's wins are "tarnished" because he has had the best equipment? Most champions end up with the best stuff, have you looked back at the competition that Agostini had in winning his titles? Back in the 500cc GP days at one stage Michelin had "A" spec tires that they supplied the "A" listed riders, then some of these tires were available to the best of the rest, based on qualifying or previous results. These tires were suppose to be worth about a 1 second per lap. Some riders struggled when getting the good rubber as once they had so much better grip they found their suspension settings etc were no longer relevant. The top Michelin rubber has always been a premium tire that was only available to a few.

Your point is taken and it was never questioned by the masses I believe.

The question for me is what would happen if TC along with other electronics disappeared from the series? Would Casey do as well? Or would he be just another good rider. He did not do all that well with Honda last year. What changed (yes, we know the answer)? Traction Control. Ducati has better TC than anyone else on the grid.

Once again, D/S/B combo was fantastic this year. All credit is due. But as Mamola pointed out, he would not win a race on Nicky's bike. So, it is the D/B combo that is better than the H/M combo. So, to me Stoner has to win next year, the following year, and years after that to considered a great rider. Championships that is.

[kiwigav]

Originally Posted by flippy

The question for me is what would happen if TC along with other electronics disappeared from the series? Would Casey do as well? Or would he be just another good rider. He did not do all that well with Honda last year. What changed (yes, we know the answer)? Traction Control. Ducati has better TC than anyone else on the grid.

Once again, D/S/B combo was fantastic this year. All credit is due. But as Mamola pointed out, he would not win a race on Nicky's bike. So, it is the D/B combo that is better than the H/M combo. So, to me Stoner has to win next year, the following year, and years after that to considered a great rider. Championships that is.

Look at his first few results on the Honda, don't forget he missed 9 days of testing the 990. He was 6th in his 1st race, qualified on pole and finished 5th in his second ever race and was 2nd and on the podium in his 3rd!
Some fast learner huh? And this all on a privateer RCV! I believe Repsol and possibly Rossi's Yamaha team put pressure on Michelin and ensured that Stoner was denied the special treatment tires and service that they got.
If Stoner was on the factory Repsol Honda this year, I think he'd be getting the better of Pedrosa. So who would be on the factory Ducati in Stoners place? Nicky Hayden? You think he could dominate the season like Stoner has?

[Jami6989]

Originally Posted by kiwigav

Look at his first few results on the Honda, don't forget he missed 9 days of testing the 990. He was 6th in his 1st race, qualified on pole and finished 5th in his second ever race and was 2nd and on the podium in his 3rd!
Some fast learner huh? And this all on a privateer RCV! I believe Repsol and possibly Rossi's Yamaha team put pressure on Michelin and ensured that Stoner was denied the special treatment tires and service that they got.

Ah, finally someone that gets it. Stoner must win his first year in the GPs on 2nd rate equipment to be considered good. And don't forget, he also needs to win multiple Championships without the exact same advantages that Rossi was able to win his with. I'm amazed at how hard the Rossi Leghumpers are holding on to his leg(acy). You have to be exactly like Rossi, but without all the advantages that won him HIS Championships in order to be given any credit whatsoever. The sourest grapes I've ever seen.

[sqd8r]

Originally Posted by Jami6989

Ah, finally someone that gets it. Stoner must win his first year in the GPs on 2nd rate equipment to be considered good. And don't forget, he also needs to win multiple Championships without the exact same advantages that Rossi was able to win his with. I'm amazed at how hard the Rossi Leghumpers are holding on to his leg(acy). You have to be exactly like Rossi, but without all the advantages that won him HIS Championships in order to be given any credit whatsoever. The sourest grapes I've ever seen.

[duckdawg]

Nicky could have done as well as Stoner had he ridden the Ducati...

[bsess]

Originally Posted by kiwigav

So now some of Rossi's wins are "tarnished" because he has had the best equipment? Most champions end up with the best stuff, have you looked back at the competition that Agostini had in winning his titles? Back in the 500cc GP days at one stage Michelin had "A" spec tires that they supplied the "A" listed riders, then some of these tires were available to the best of the rest, based on qualifying or previous results. These tires were suppose to be worth about a 1 second per lap. Some riders struggled when getting the good rubber as once they had so much better grip they found their suspension settings etc were no longer relevant. The top Michelin rubber has always been a premium tire that was only available to a few.

I agree with you completely, Gavin. I think the suggestion that some of Rossi's titles are tarnished due to equipment advantages (in addition to his superior abilities) only arose in response to those who claimed that Stoner winning the title was the result of an extraordinary equipment advantage.

Regarding the whole "A" spec tire thing, I believe one of the principal reasons why WSBK went to a one tire rule was because outside of the top two or so factory teams, no one else was getting the same quality Michelins.

[bsess]

Originally Posted by kiwigav

Look at his first few results on the Honda, don't forget he missed 9 days of testing the 990. He was 6th in his 1st race, qualified on pole and finished 5th in his second ever race and was 2nd and on the podium in his 3rd!
Some fast learner huh? And this all on a privateer RCV! I believe Repsol and possibly Rossi's Yamaha team put pressure on Michelin and ensured that Stoner was denied the special treatment tires and service that they got.
If Stoner was on the factory Repsol Honda this year, I think he'd be getting the better of Pedrosa. So who would be on the factory Ducati in Stoners place? Nicky Hayden? You think he could dominate the season like Stoner has?

Stoner demonstrated his great talent last year and the year before in 250s. Whatever inconsistency he demonstrated due to equipment disadvantages, inexperience (premier class) and because he lacked focus, maturity and conditioning, he really made up for in spades during the off season leading up to this year by conditioning himself intensely for the first time in his career. I think the only one who might have dominated on the Ducati like Stoner did would be Rossi and that's a "might" as opposed to a "for sure".
Pedrosa and Hayden would likely have each been able to win the title as well had they the same ride but again that's not for sure and I don't believe either would have been as dominant as Stoner.

[247]

I guess we'll learn more next year.

Every single quote I've seen from people who are actually there at the tracks observing the action seem to be saying that:
Stoner rode very well
The Ducati was clearly the best
Bridgestone tires were dominant

Next year:
The Yamaha and Honda's should be closing the gap to Ducati.
Rossi will be on Bridgestones.
And Melandri will have the same bike and tires as Casey.

This should help us see if Rossi is washed up and if Stoner is better then the rest.

The Speedzilla Rossi Haters don't really have a great record of predicting future events. Many predicted a Hayden repeat, including a few that bet on it!

Originally Posted by flippy

Just love reading what the experts are saying around here.

Until Casey wins 5 or more titles, he is IMO a good racer not a great one. He, Ducati, and Bridgestone did a fantastic job this year but it helps when Ducati has the best TC on the grid.

Randy Mamola has stated that if Casey was on Nicky's bike this year, Casey would not be the world champion.

Win. Wipe Out. Repeat. - New York Times

“Futuristic things like traction control, it's cutting down the role of the talent,” says Randy Mamola, the ex-racer and now a television commentator. “If you put [Stoner] on Nicky's bike, he wouldn't have won any races. I guarantee that.”

So, that's what the expert says...fire away...

[bsess]

Originally Posted by 247

The Speedzilla Rossi Haters don't really have a great record of predicting future events. Many predicted a Hayden repeat, including a few that bet on it!

Rossi lovers aren't so great either. As recently as last year you predicted that Hayden would never win a title. Not too Kreskinesque. I think you even predicted that Hayden would choke and crash out at the final round in Valencia. I guess that was a case of the right vision but the wrong choker...

[Turbo329]

I for one do not agree that Rossi should leave Michelin.

If he switches to Bridgestone and cannot catch Stoner, it will destroy his legacy whether the Yamaha sucks or not.

He should fight through the pain and stick with Michelin. My $0.02

[247]

Did I do that?

Obviously, I was wrong: everyone knows now that Nicholas J. Hayden is the future of MotoGP!

[bsess]

Originally Posted by Turbo329

I for one do not agree that Rossi should leave Michelin.

If he switches to Bridgestone and cannot catch Stoner, it will destroy his legacy whether the Yamaha sucks or not.

He should fight through the pain and stick with Michelin. My $0.02

I totally agree. We now have $0.04 between us......

[bsess]

Originally Posted by 247

Did I do that?

Rossi lovers have been known to have weak powers of recall.

[flippy]

Just to remind everyone what the expert says about this...

“Futuristic things like traction control, it's cutting down the role of the talent,” says Randy Mamola, the ex-racer and now a television commentator. “If you put [Stoner] on Nicky's bike, he wouldn't have won any races. I guarantee that.”


Remember he is an Expert and we are NOT.

[DucatiDom]

When was the last time Mamola was on anything resembling a factory GP bike? I guarentee that he wouldn't turn one lap near any current riders time let alone Nicky,Rossi ,Stoner, Melandri, etc...

[mrgrn]

Originally Posted by DucatiDom

When was the last time Mamola was on anything resembling a factory GP bike? I guarentee that he wouldn't turn one lap near any current riders time let alone Nicky,Rossi ,Stoner, Melandri, etc...

so this means he knows nothing about the bikes then correct?

I bet neither could Jerry Burgess and i bet youthis opinion is naught too?

[247]

First off, Randy rides the factory GP bikes every season.
Second, he rides the Ducati 2 seater all summer long.
Third, his riding skills are not in question.
He attends every round in person, watches every pratice sesssion and gets to talk with every rider, crew chief and tire guy. He's informed.

Originally Posted by DucatiDom

When was the last time Mamola was on anything resembling a factory GP bike? I guarentee that he wouldn't turn one lap near any current riders time let alone Nicky,Rossi ,Stoner, Melandri, etc...

[DucatiDom]

247 thank you for the informative reply, if he is current with the bikes then his opinion has more validity than a guy that hasn't ridden current race technology in the past ten years. I stand corrected on Mamola.