Man, you've just got to love the anti-harley sportbike crowd. You guys make the KKK look like mensa international.
This is what makes debating an issue on a forum so annoying : as soon as a number of people make an obviously valid point--in this case that H-D bikes are archaic, overpriced and their owners are OFTEN posing d!cks--the sensitive crowd chimes in with a supposedly rational (read : 'politically correct') counterpoint . FWIW , I ride a cruiser in addition to a sportbike . Yeah , I sound like a moron , a racist one at that . Great comparison .
This is what makes debating an issue on a forum so annoying : as soon as a number of people make an obviously valid point--in this case that H-D bikes are archaic, overpriced and their owners are OFTEN posing d!cks--the sensitive crowd chimes in with a supposedly rational (read : 'politically correct') counterpoint . FWIW , I ride a cruiser in addition to a sportbike . Yeah , I sound like a moron , a racist one at that . Great comparison .
Indeed, it is close-minded, see-only-what-you-want-to-see posts like yours that is annoying. Let's begin with "archaic". Help us all understand what is so high tech with the Honda Shadow VTX's, or the Kawasaki Vulcan's, or the Road Star Warriors. I'll help you get started... Which of these metric V-Twin cruisers offer six speeds, ABS, Brembo braking, throttle-by-wire, and in the V-Rod's case - slipper clutches. We won't even get into fit & finish at this time. Please, give us a list of all the modern advancements. After all, you are open-minded. Following your informed enumeration of why H-D is archaic and its v-twin competition is not, we'll begin to explore pricing and posing.
The metric cruisers are just copies of Harleys, Victory is the same way. The exception with most of the metrics is that they went with the more modern liquid cooling instead of air. But the point is that you can get a metric Harley look-a-like for a third the price. Why? Because it is old technology. HD sells an image, that's it. I have no problem with that, if people want to pay to get in that club, fine. What I don't like is when they tell me my bike is inferior and not "real" just because it's Japanese. But I'm still going to wave at 'em whether they like it or not.
Indeed, it is close-minded, see-only-what-you-want-to-see posts like yours that is annoying. Let's begin with "archaic". Help us all understand what is so high tech with the Honda Shadow VTX's, or the Kawasaki Vulcan's, or the Road Star Warriors. I'll help you get started... Which of these metric V-Twin cruisers offer six speeds, ABS, Brembo braking, throttle-by-wire, and in the V-Rod's case - slipper clutches. We won't even get into fit & finish at this time. Please, give us a list of all the modern advancements. After all, you are open-minded. Following your informed enumeration of why H-D is archaic and its v-twin competition is not, we'll begin to explore pricing and posing.
Someone compares all the anti-HD posters to KKK racists , and I'M the one not seeing accurately ?! You're funny . The technical advances on HD's you site were all introduced within the last few years . And they still can't match the reliability of the Japanese competion . Not even close !
The metric cruisers are just copies of Harleys, Victory is the same way. The exception with most of the metrics is that they went with the more modern liquid cooling instead of air. But the point is that you can get a metric Harley look-a-like for a third the price. Why? Because it is old technology....
H-D offers a liquid cooled choice. Good for them.
Hmmmm, a friend of mine just bought a FXDC Super Glide Custom for $13,300. His alternative choice was the stripped down Honda VTX 1800 for $14,400.
Someone compares all the anti-HD posters to KKK racists , and I'M the one not seeing accurately ?! You're funny . The technical advances on HD's you site were all introduced within the last few years . And they still can't match the reliability of the Japanese competion . Not even close !
You can try to change the subject to one of reliablity, and we'll get to this dated comment soon, but first, still waiting for your list of technical advancements with the metric competition so we can all believe you are open-minded, not just seeing what you want to see.
You can try to change the subject to one of reliablity, and we'll get to this dated comment soon, but first, still waiting for your list of technical advancements with the metric competition so we can all believe you are open-minded, not just seeing what you want to see.
I have a life so I don't want to get into a discussion of the obvious , but fine, I'll spend a few minutes dispelling the myth . An example of "archaic design" is a separate engine and transmission . Or how about spindly forks and cheap shocks on a $30K , 700lb cruiser ? Not to mention a weak , flexy frame . These points are clear to anyone who has been riding and comparing bikes for the past 20 years . Have you read a mag test of a Harley ? Granted they have improved alot and the pro testers give them credit for the improvements , but considering the poor technical base on which HD is building , almost any change is for the better . Bottom line , for the price they aren't anything special and should offer more ; tradition isn't enough for me . Also , HD fans often cite the V-Rod whenever the notion of design is raised , but it is well known that this engine was largely designed and refined by Porsche . Now , the Japanese cruisers are mostly large V-twins too , and tend to copy the lumbering attitude of a big HD , but they are designed and built by companies which have great technical skill as evidenced by their sportbikes . The cruisers are infused with some of this smart , efficient thinking which makes them...wait for it...more reliable ; and BTW this is not changing the subject b/c it was my point all along , that the competition is better designed and built and is more reliable . Reliability is way up on the list for me , I don't know about you . This is not a dated objection to HD as I have many friends and riding partners who have owned these bikes and they would not go back to the product again . One last point about the Japanese competition : the latest crop of performance cruisers is excellent and HD has no answer except the Porsche V-Rod . For eg. , the Suzuki M109 puts down 110HP to the rear wheel with GSXR-type FI and great breaks with good handling all for a sale price here in Canada 1/3 of the price of a middle range big inch HD or V-Rod . Look , if you're an HD aficionado , fine , live your life , but a dream is far from reality . As I stated in a previous post , one can't argue against the success of the Company , but this fact doesn't make their bikes great .
Hmmmm, a friend of mine just bought a FXDC Super Glide Custom for $13,300. His alternative choice was the stripped down Honda VTX 1800 for $14,400.
I thought the only liquid cooled Harley is the V-Rod. I could be wrong though.
And I'm not familiar with HD's model letter codes, but I confirmed with a friend that rides Harleys (he's got two) that it comes stock with a 88 ci engine (1350cc). So the apples to apples comparison would be the VTX 1300T, with an MSRP of $10,989. Don't know what the "custom" part of your buddy's bike is, but I bet the Honda dealer would be more willing to negotiate accessories and price. Or wait, isn't this thread originally about HD's flagging sales? So maybe the Harley dealer will negotiate after all.
I have a life so I don't want to get into a discussion of the obvious , but fine, I'll spend a few minutes dispelling the myth . An example of "archaic design" is a separate engine and transmission . Or how about spindly forks and cheap shocks on a $30K cruiser ? Not to mention a weak , flexy frame . These points are clear to anyone who has been riding and comparing bikes for the past 20 years . Have you read a mag test of a Harley ? granted they have improved alot but for the price they aren't anything special . Also , HD fans often cite the V-Rod whenever the notion od (typo , can't delete) of designe is raised , but it is well known that this engine was largely designed and refined by Porsche . Now , the Japanese cruisers are mostly large V-twins too , and tend to copy the lumbering attitude of a big HD , but they are designed and built by companies which have great technical skill as evidenced by their sportbikes . The cruisers are infused with some of this smart , efficient thinking which makes them...wait for it...more reliable ; and BTW this is not changing the subject b/c it was my point all along , that the competion is better designed and built and is more reliable . reliability is way up on the list for me , I don't know about you . This is not a dated objection to HD as I have many friends and riding partners who have owned these bikes and they would not go back to the product again . One last point about the Japanese competion : the latest crop of performance cruisers are excellent and HD has no answer except the Porsche V-Rod . For eg. , the Suzuki M109 puts down 110HP to the rear wheel with GSXR-type FI and great breaks with good handling all for a sale price here in canada 1/3 of the price of a middle range big inch HD or V-Rod . Look , if you're an HD aficionado , fine , live your life , but a dream is far from reality . as I stated in a previous post , one can't argue against the success of the Company , but this fact doesn't n make their bikes great .
Such a dated and uninformed p-o-v. Egads, your forks and shocks comments totally apply to the metric cruisers I've owned over the years. Brakes? The rear brake on my Honda Shadow cruiser was drum! The sweet Road King suspension makes it seem like I'm riding a brick when on the Valkyrie. I've owned H-D big twins, V-Rods, five different Honda's, Duc's, MV's, KTM's, BMW's and for sure, your hatred of things Milwaukee comes out loud and clear. It tints everything you say, blinding you to the reality of other cruisers.
While my Hondas have been reliable I still suffered cam chain tensioner problems and a fried stator left me stranded on the Blackbird. Five H-D's... problems? None, nada, zip.
Since you haven't answered what is not archaic with the Vulcan, or Warrior, or VTX (Proving you only see what you want to see), lets look at the humongous M109R versus the V-Rod. According to Motorcycle Consumer News (Dec '07 performance specs) the V-Rod out performs the M109R in every performance measure... 0-60mph, 0-100mph, 1/4 mile, and top end. And this is all with the 1130cc engine. This year it was bumped to 1250cc's. And here's where the M109R really falls short -- it's portly weight of 761lbs contributes to a horrible braking (60-0 sec) measure of 135.4ft. The V-Rod and its 619lbs comes to a halt in 109.5 ft. Please oh please, find me a single review where the M109R outhandles the V-Rod.
But here's where you really miss the boat. These are cruisers. Performance specs like the preceding are not at the top of the cruising buyer's must have list. Otherwise the cruising buying public would be flocking to the V-Rod and M109R (Which I like - the sweetest stock exhaust note), but they aren't. You really reveal yourself to know little about this category of motorcycling.
....and I'm not familiar with HD's model letter codes, but I confirmed with a friend that rides Harleys (he's got two) that it comes stock with a 88 ci engine (1350cc). So the apples to apples comparison would be the VTX 1300T, with an MSRP of $10,989. Don't know what the "custom" part of your buddy's bike is, but I bet the Honda dealer would be more willing to negotiate accessories and price. Or wait, isn't this thread originally about HD's flagging sales? So maybe the Harley dealer will negotiate after all.
No, your friend is incorrect. They come standard with a 96ci engine and six-speed tranny. The Dyna and softtails that is.
Go ahead and laugh about their current troubles. In a bad year they sell 6 times as many units as Ducati does. As they say in Texas : "I 5hit bigger than you...."
I thought the only liquid cooled Harley is the V-Rod. I could be wrong though.
And I'm not familiar with HD's model letter codes, but I confirmed with a friend that rides Harleys (he's got two) that it comes stock with a 88 ci engine (1350cc). So the apples to apples comparison would be the VTX 1300T, with an MSRP of $10,989. Don't know what the "custom" part of your buddy's bike is, but I bet the Honda dealer would be more willing to negotiate accessories and price. Or wait, isn't this thread originally about HD's flagging sales? So maybe the Harley dealer will negotiate after all.
Ahh, he has the older TwinCam 88. Dyna Superglide Customs were even cheaper back then. Where's the 1/3 price example you have?
Ummmm. Business Statistics 100. A percentage decline offers limited value in a vaccuum. It is best to compare an index to what is happening in a category or industry. According to a 4th quarter report I saw, H-D was indeed down in the 8-10% range. And guess what, the majority of motorcycle makes were down the same % or worse. Ducati and KTM were the only makes showing an increase. As a matter of fact because H-D's decline was less than the market's decline, H-D actually gained share.
To be sure, it is dismal for Milwaukee at the moment, but it is equally so for the industry, and especially for those makes exporting to the U.S. and getting paid in cheap U.S. dollars.
Just go ride some of them there vibroglides at a demo day. You'll understand what real junk is and appreciate whatever you now ride. And be sure to watch one as you ride behind it. The rear wheel is so offset to one side to use the wide belt drive that they yaw going over bumps and undulations. Absolutely laughable.
In defense of them, the chrome is stunning. Now that is a feature that makes a bike!
Just go ride some of them there vibroglides at a demo day. You'll understand what real junk is and appreciate whatever you now ride. And be sure to watch one as you ride behind it. The rear wheel is so offset to one side to use the wide belt drive that they yaw going over bumps and undulations. Absolutely laughable.
In defense of them, the chrome is stunning. Now that is a feature that makes a bike!
I wish my Honda Shadow Spirit would be as smooth as the H-D! Good thing I don't have any fillings to lose at 55mph+. The Honda practically vibrates me off the seat!
Yeah, that Power Ranger clad poser on the Suzuki with his frame sliders and license plate relocation kit sure noticed the offset when I raced him 26 miles up curvy Jefferson 126 on the Road King. Powered past him at about mile 18 coming out of a curve while just biding my time until then as he tried to drop me. To be sure, it wouldn't have been fair if I was on the Duc.
Such a dated and uninformed p-o-v. Egads, your forks and shocks comments totally apply to the metric cruisers I've owned over the years. Brakes? The rear brake on my Honda Shadow cruiser was drum! The sweet Road King suspension makes it seem like I'm riding a brick when on the Valkyrie. I've owned H-D big twins, V-Rods, five different Honda's, Duc's, MV's, KTM's, BMW's and for sure, your hatred of things Milwaukee comes out loud and clear. It tints everything you say, blinding you to the reality of other cruisers.
While my Hondas have been reliable I still suffered cam chain tensioner problems and a fried stator left me stranded on the Blackbird. Five H-D's... problems? None, nada, zip.
Since you haven't answered what is not archaic with the Vulcan, or Warrior, or VTX (Proving you only see what you want to see), lets look at the humongous M109R versus the V-Rod. According to Motorcycle Consumer News (Dec '07 performance specs) the V-Rod out performs the M109R in every performance measure... 0-60mph, 0-100mph, 1/4 mile, and top end. And this is all with the 1130cc engine. This year it was bumped to 1250cc's. And here's where the M109R really falls short -- it's portly weight of 761lbs contributes to a horrible braking (60-0 sec) measure of 135.4ft. The V-Rod and its 619lbs comes to a halt in 109.5 ft. Please oh please, find me a single review where the M109R outhandles the V-Rod.
But here's where you really miss the boat. These are cruisers. Performance specs like the preceding are not at the top of the cruising buyer's must have list. Otherwise the cruising buying public would be flocking to the V-Rod and M109R (Which I like - the sweetest stock exhaust note), but they aren't. You really reveal yourself to know little about this category of motorcycling.
Considering your inane comments , which are clearly blinded by a false sense of patriotism , I've forgotten more about bikes than you know , as the saying goes . Gee , there's the V-Rod mentioned again , the PORSCHE V-Rod that is , which ALSO has well know problems like a leaky rear cylinder head for twice the price of the M109R . And don't quote MSRP's of the 2 bikes b/c everyone knows that the multi-line dealers will give a HUGE discount if you're a smart shopper , which you obviously aren't . You've had 5 H-D's with 0 problems ? Bullshit . Or you ride up and down your street and call yourself a biker . The Japanese bikes are not perfect , but to compare reliability between them and HD is laughable . And since you gave anecdotal "evidence" of HD reliability , here's one for you : A friend has had a 2000 Honda RC-51 since new , used for commuting and MANY track days , and the ODO is about to turn 130,000KM , with no problems of any kind . Now that's quality which indicates a company that cares about its customers , by offering first class machinery for a low price . BTW , I mentioned the performance aspect of cruisers only to highlight the technical prowess , engineering , and overall value of the competition , not to claim that the disillusioned masses who flock to the Motor Company (not a pretentious name ) are interested in actual performance . Now , I'm bored with this thread , so have fun on your steamer .
Who cares if Porsche helped with the design. It's still an H-D product. Is this all you can come up with?
Too bad you call me a liar about the perfect reliablity of the H-D's I've owned. You don't even know me. Egads, another example of the kind of person you are.
I provided the current MSRP's of both bikes, taken from their web pages today. I provided stats from MCN. All you come up with is baseless charges. I refute them, and you bounce around some more Let's keep it simple. You're challenged by anything more. AGAIN, cite the EVIDENCE, the FACTS, that H-D's cruisers are "archaic" versus the v-twin competition. Tell me PRECISELY what high tech advances can be found on the VTX, the Vulcan, or the Warrior. I've noted to you the H-D six speed trannies, ABS, Brembo braking, throttle-by-wire, slipper clutches, etc. Surely the metric v-twin competition has these nice and simple technology features don't they? After all, H-D is archaic versus the comp. Prove it. This is fun!
Ahh, he has the older TwinCam 88. Dyna Superglide Customs were even cheaper back then. Where's the 1/3 price example you have?
Ummmm. Business Statistics 100. A percentage decline offers limited value in a vaccuum. It is best to compare an index to what is happening in a category or industry. According to a 4th quarter report I saw, H-D was indeed down in the 8-10% range. And guess what, the majority of motorcycle makes were down the same % or worse. Ducati and KTM were the only makes showing an increase. As a matter of fact because H-D's decline was less than the market's decline, H-D actually gained share.
To be sure, it is dismal for Milwaukee at the moment, but it is equally so for the industry, and especially for those makes exporting to the U.S. and getting paid in cheap U.S. dollars.
You don't need to lecture me on Business Statistics, I got my ed-ju-mu-cation. What I wonder about those statistics you offer--and I'm sorry, but I just can't drum up enough interest in Harley to look it up myself--is how skewed are they due to non-motorcycle sales. You know, black and orange thongs and whatnot. Screamin' Eagle: Harley brand. I bet the Motor Company makes more on accessories, clothes, and licensing than they do on their bikes. They sell an image, I suppose that's what you refer to when you say that cruiser riders aren't shopping for performance.
So anyway, when you say that HD's decline was less than the market's as a whole, how much of that can be attributed to people buying their friends and husbands a Harley______ (fill in the blank)?
I could be wrong though.
contributes to a horrible braking (60-0 sec) measure of 135.4ft. The V-Rod and its 619lbs comes to a halt in 109.5 ft. Please oh please, find me a single review where the M109R outhandles the V-Rod.
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